Wireless Bridge Recommendations

[PinkFloydEffect]

I suddenly have to work from home for the next several week to a month so I talked the landlord into letting me run a cable to her router. I just need to find the least invasive way to get a cable to it. I thought about tying two Ethernet cables to her copper feed line running to her gateway/router inside...then pull her Ethernet out bringing two back into the wall with it granted its not going around any 90 degree bends. Otherwise I may need to drill a hole and run a new line somehow.

If that plan fell though though I did learn about the TP-LINK RE450 today which is even better than the EX6150. This extender is 3x3 @ up to 1300Mbps on 5 GHz which means the EX6150 is probably only 2x2 on 5 GHz.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/range-extender/re450/

Absolutely true but I thought you just wanted an Ethernet port that went to your own firewall that then went to your very own substructure of LAN ports and APs?

If not then there's still the THiggins tri-band extenders.

But your own connection sounds best; you'll have a lot more opportunities for think, tinker and play : -)

I do, so in that sense I would only be using the 5 GHz backhaul.

Pairing with what? Could you please explain this?

Yes, so at least with Ubiquity their "bridge" systems/radios either use licensed frequency ranges, or even on common frequencies such as 5 GHz they only connect to their own products. So I would need to install an airMAX for example on the landlords side if I wanted to use one on my side to connect to her WiFi. I think they use a proprietary protocol or system of some sort, therefor not compatible with any other brand radio. They call it "pairing" when you connect to one of their proprietary radio networks.

 

[Klueless]

... did learn about the TP-LINK RE450 today

Specs look good and the Ethernet port defaults to using 5 GHz as the backhaul (configurable). Looking forward to hearing how it works out for you (should you use it).

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Specs look good and the Ethernet port defaults to using 5 GHz as the backhaul (configurable). Looking forward to hearing how it works out for you (should you use it).

So, the landlord fell through on her agreement when it came time to snake the Ethernet to her router...she is so weird. I called the ISP and they said I can not get another line of service to this address, so I am back to square one needing to get on that WiFi network. Very frustrating.

I started comparing a lot of products, and something I like about the EX6150 is the fact it appears the antennas can be removed or replaced with high gain antennas. On the other hand I found the successor to the RE450...which is the RE650!

RE450:
-3x3 MU-MIMO
-450Mbps @ 2.4 GHz
-1300Mbps @ 5 GHz

RE650:
-4x4 MU-MIMO
-800Mbps @ 2.4GHz
-1733Mbps @ 5 GHz

Now talking about real-world performance using an internet connection speed that is still unknown (no more or up to 300Mbps) even 2x2 MU-MIMO is capable of tunneling my full ISP speed probably even @ 2.4 GHz. However depending who else is actually using the WiFi I may need all the streams just to compensate for busy/shared streams, which is where 4x4 will actually become practical and usable, right? I may need real world testing but due to the signal strength of 2.4 GHz it may actually be more practical to use that as my backhaul, but the landlords AP only supports 4x4 on 5 GHz and 3x3 on 2.4 GHz (Arris NVG468MQ). If the RE450 supports 450Mbps on 3x3 @ 2.4 GHz than the RE650 should also support 450Mbps on 3x3, even with a 'decent' signal that should yield my full ISP speed. Again real world testing will be the key here since there are a lot of variables with other users and possibly ping/latency differences between 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz.


Furthering down the rabbit hole we have the Netgear EX7300 (the EX6150s successor) which is 4x4 but the 2.4 GHz specs are not great for 4x4 so I suspect it only operates on 4x4 @ 5 GHz. There is also an EX7500 but it does not appear to have an Ethernet jack.

EX7300:
-4x4 MU-MIMO
-450Mbps @ 2.4GHz
-1733Mbps @ 5 GHz

As mentioned above there is the EX8000 which seems to actually be somewhat directional based on the internal photos...so I would be between the RE650 or EX8000.

Now, I do have one last candidate I am considering. That is the Wavlink Aerial range extender...but it does not seem to be sold on Amazon. Their website shows two versions with identical specs so it is kind of confusing (WN579G3 & WN579X3). They both have a visual spec photo showing speeds of up to 1167Mbps but when you scroll down to the specs it says they support up to 867Mbps on 802.11AC so I suspect these are only 2x2 or 3x3.

These units do boast 'high power amplifiers' for 5x transmission power...but I am guessing they get this number from the 5dBi antennas which is kind of gimmicky, but I believe 5dBi is more than any of these other units mentioned above.

Which leads me to my final conclusion, what is better for my application...more streams or higher gain (dBi) antennas??

 

[L&LD]

Given an 'adequate' gain at a given distance/location, more streams are better, ime, for the best throughput and the highest responsiveness.

 

[MichaelCG]

I "thought" NanoStations can act in AP Bridge mode as well, not just AirMax mode. Don't quote me on this...may have to go over to the Ubiquiti forums to confirm.

Is the apartment on the same power feeds? Any chance powerline stuff will work?

As other's have said, there is no point in chasing these 4x4 expensive solutions unless you know the source AP has 4x4 as well. You really should be chasing something with directional antennas if you have signal challenges.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I "thought" NanoStations can act in AP Bridge mode as well, not just AirMax mode. Don't quote me on this...may have to go over to the Ubiquiti forums to confirm.

Is the apartment on the same power feeds? Any chance powerline stuff will work?

As other's have said, there is no point in chasing these 4x4 expensive solutions unless you know the source AP has 4x4 as well. You really should be chasing something with directional antennas if you have signal challenges.

I believe they can, but require another NanoStation to pair to. I did open a thread over there but nobody has come up with a solution using their products.
https://community.ui.com/questions/...-5GHz-AC/638cb3d2-08ec-4073-a777-e8eb60c70be4

Powerline is not a bad idea, but for one I do have a separate breaker panel and two she will not allow anything to be done inside her house. This whole thing is so frustrating I am looking into breaking my lease.

I did mention the landlords AP is an Arris NVG468MQ, which supports 3x3 on 2.4 GHz and 4x4 on 5 GHZ. So chasing a 4x4 solution is desirable.

Yes I agree directional antennas are the key here, which none of these have. After doing some pricing last night I believe that WAVLINK makes some cheap garbage products.

I am going to give one of these a shot and go from there, if it does not work I will return it and move onto a more complicated solution. I like what Klueless did with his EX6150 in a window, and the window I would be using has blinds that stay shut 24/7 facing the back of the landlords house. With these mesh/extender/repeaters above they are thin enough to fit between the blinds and glass so I do not even have to see it. The window to the right over the stairs is in the line of sight to the landlords door with the AP....but obstructed by the patio roof.

 

[MichaelCG]

Sorry missed the specs on the ISP router.....

I found this thread...which is old...that confirms that at least at one point in time, a NanoStation could do this.

https://community.ui.com/questions/...Fi-AP-LR/4fa7da03-7dcb-498c-994d-898e6207934b

I have never tried it, just read about it, so no idea how well it will work and if this is even still a feature on the current software releases. I see on the UI thread you may have finally talked her into the wired connection...hopefully that works out for you.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Sorry missed the specs on the ISP router.....

I found this thread...which is old...that confirms that at least at one point in time, a NanoStation could do this.

https://community.ui.com/questions/...Fi-AP-LR/4fa7da03-7dcb-498c-994d-898e6207934b

I have never tried it, just read about it, so no idea how well it will work and if this is even still a feature on the current software releases. I see on the UI thread you may have finally talked her into the wired connection...hopefully that works out for you.

That person is not using a non-Ubiquity AP, they mention using a UniFi AP.

It did not work out with the landlord, which is why I am carrying on with this project lol.

I was provided with a cable TV set top box (Arris IPC1100) which has an Ethernet port on the back. Technically this is a MoCA device so its receiving an IP over coax, but it does not seem like I can use this as a source of internet connection. Not much in the manual about it but it must be used as a supplement for non-MoCA networks. Its really too bad it can not be configured to work like a broadband modem. There are no activity lights on my Ethernet port when connected, and it says cable not connected so I can not even attempt logging into it.

https://www.verizon.com/cs/groups/public/documents/adacct/ipc1100_installation_manual-s.pdf

To start the baselines I am using a Windows app called WiFi Analyzer, very effective for a free Windows App. I am currently using an 802.11AC StarTech AC1200 USB-3.0 adapter (USB867WAC22) on a USB-3.0 certified 9ft extension cable suspended on a desk lamp. It is only 2x2 supporting 300Mbps on 2.4 GHz and 867Mbps on 5 GHz. The thing runs on 5v so the radio is limited by that as well. Chipet is a Realtek - RTL8812AU which is often sold with 5dBi antennas now. The mesh extenders however run off wall voltage stepped down to an unknown voltage likely above 5v.

My signal average is -70dBm suspended on the lamp:

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I am not really sure my laptop is functioning correctly with this app/adapter. It just gives me a solid dBm reading of -72, and does not fluctuate like on my desktop using the extension cable. This is all the way near the windows above the staircase. Maybe the USB 3.0 controller is not as good on my laptop, because the signal is better connected to my desktop.

I used the same 9ft 3.0 cable to prop the adapter in the window between the blinds and glass. Surprisingly it only improved to -70dBm...the same signal it gets 15ft away from the window connected to my desktop!

I did notice I get a better throughput when testing ISP speed if I have the adapter vertical, but it does not do much for the dBm signal.

At this point I decided to test the signal on the first floor in my door blinds, which is level with the landlords AP and even closer to it than the windows are. Signal got worse around -76dBm, and none of my testing anywhere in my apartment yields a consistent speed test. Running the same speed test in the same location(s) results a latency ping anywhere from 4ms-110ms with bandwidth speeds from 0.00Mbps-135Mbps both up and down speeds.

 

[MichaelCG]

That person is not using a non-Ubiquity AP, they mention using a UniFi AP.

Note that mixing a UniFi and a NanoStation is just like mixing vendors. Those are two unrelated product lines that do not have direct cross-over nor integration. Some of their AirMax gear can act as a WiFi bridge to provide a wired Ethernet port with wireless backhaul.

As for your testing...trust your speed/performance tests more than your signal strength readings. Keep in mind that the software you are using is only telling half the story. It only reports the signal strength that the adapter reports for the AP signal. You do not know what the signal strength the AP is reporting for your adapter.

 

[Klueless]

Ha. Sure brought back memories from when I was trying to connect two buildings in similar fashion. Back then there were no tri-bands and dual band had just come out. The 2nd bldg. was an old plaster/lathe house with solid core doors. It had three windows / candidates that faced the bldg. with the router.

I started by placing a laptop on stacks of books, chairs, tables, whatever near each window and running a WiFi analyzer for ideas. Then I'd run speed tests to verify what the WiFi analyzer suggested.

Once I convinced myself it was "feasible" I bought a dual band range extender, picked the "best" window and set it up. I was pretty surprised by how much a few inches could effect speed/performance. Just a few inches.

At any rate thanks for the memories, good luck and I do look forward to hearing all about the final results.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Note that mixing a UniFi and a NanoStation is just like mixing vendors. Those are two unrelated product lines that do not have direct cross-over nor integration. Some of their AirMax gear can act as a WiFi bridge to provide a wired Ethernet port with wireless backhaul.

As for your testing...trust your speed/performance tests more than your signal strength readings. Keep in mind that the software you are using is only telling half the story. It only reports the signal strength that the adapter reports for the AP signal. You do not know what the signal strength the AP is reporting for your adapter.

They are both Ubiquity products though, I will have to look into it. My post on their forums yielded nothing.

Good call on the signal strength, I was not aware the AP signal was just as important...I thought I was getting an average between the two.

Ha. Sure brought back memories from when I was trying to connect two buildings in similar fashion. Back then there were no tri-bands and dual band had just come out. The 2nd bldg. was an old plaster/lathe house with solid core doors. It had three windows / candidates that faced the bldg. with the router.

I started by placing a laptop on stacks of books, chairs, tables, whatever near each window and running a WiFi analyzer for ideas. Then I'd run speed tests to verify what the WiFi analyzer suggested.

Once I convinced myself it was "feasible" I bought a dual band range extender, picked the "best" window and set it up. I was pretty surprised by how much a few inches could effect speed/performance. Just a few inches.

At any rate thanks for the memories, good luck and I do look forward to hearing all about the final results.

I am kind of doing the same as you, by pulling signal readings with the USB adapter. To only follow up with speed tests.


I was poking around Walmart and noticed what I thought was a Netgear EX7300 but it turned out to be the EX6400...which supports 1900Mbps instead of the 7300's 2200Mbps. I can not find out what the exact top speeds are for 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz though, or whether it uses 4x4 or 3x3. I bought it at least to get a baseline, I will probably return it and try the RE650.

To start I simply plugged it in at the top of the staircase because its the closest outlet to the windows, on that side of the half wall. I am running it on Ethernet as you can see, but this is by far not an ideal location to run this unit due to the Ethernet so I will be trying multiple locations.

I have it configured in FastLane mode with a 5GHz backhaul, likely using all its MIMO streams. I did enable the 2.4GHz fronthaul AP for testing. The indicator lights on the unit are green so it has good signal. I am unable to use this device with the above WiFi Analyzer app, but its status dashboard does have a signal strength reading. It shows all 4 green bars, and even has a throughput display! It is not a realtime reading (updates upon page refresh) but it has a consistent 390Mbps throughput, the lowest I have seen it was 290Mbps and highest has been 585Mbps (swings above 390Mbps more often than below).

The fronthaul AP settings show a few speed choices for the 2.4GHz radio. 54Mbps, 216Mbps, and 450Mbps. Not sure what determines these steps, possibly MIMO streams? 54Mbps is limiting each client to a single stream, and 216Mbps being two? If this is correct than this is a 3x3 mesh extender when using 2.4GHz, unsure of the 5GHz but I know the EX7300 is 4x4 when using 5GHz.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I did some 2.4GHz testing with the fronthaul AP speeds literally 20 feet from the unit (perfect signal). I used my laptop which has a PCI mini card (Intel 7260hmw) supporting 300Mbps @ 2.4GHz using 2x2 MIMO. I also used an iPhone 6S which I believe is 2x2 as well (supports MIMO so has to be at least 2x2), and finally the StarTech USB867WAC22 (also 2x2). In all three tests I was only able to get an average of 85Mbps up and down with 90Mbps being the highest. I believe my speeds are capped by the 2x2 limitations, because it is getting a much higher speed on Ethernet. The test results to the left are using Ethernet, and I have seen them as high as 198Mbps up and down...still unsure what ISP speed package the landlord has but it may be as high as 300Mbps.

Getting a bit more in depth here, this is a site survey using the USB adapter and the WiFi Analyzer app. The red circles are representing the landlords network SSID, which is using channel 48 and 157 on 5GHz. I assume on a 4x4 AP you get 4 streams per channel? Or do you need 4 channels? When connecting using Windows it does not allow you to select the channel, but mesh extenders do such as the DLINK in the beginning of this thread and this Netgear I am using here. Windows automatically selected channel 48 when using my USB adapter, but channel 157 using the same SSID has a slightly stronger signal which equates to roughly "50%" in the Netgear setup so I am using 157 with this mesh extender.

Now if you look at the photo above in the fronthaul AP settings it shows channel 6 being used, but I can select any channel I want. Based on the 2.4GHz site survey channels 1, 6 and 11 are heavily used with a few on 5 and 7. From what I can tell based on this data, channel 4 would be the best one to use for my fronthaul...right? Not sure this would improve speed though.

I am so impressed with the CONSISTENT speeds and latency on the first placement of this unit compared to using a USB adapter that I am convinced this is the way to go. I am just curious what the big difference is; antenna dBi, voltage/radio wattage or both? I am not sure I will be testing the EX8000, because the FastLane3 technology sounds like it just has two fronthaul radios with no changes on the backhaul. On the other hand 4 visible antennas on the TP-LINK RE650 seem worth testing. Reviews on the EX7300 sound like terrible build quality.
https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/wifi-range-extenders/EX8000.aspx

 

[Budgeter]

Maybe I'm wrong, but my non-technical opinion is tri-band products have no difference in term of dBi, voltage, etc compared to the other.To its base, they should have the same implementation because it's based on radio chip itself. But still, they can have different electrical configuration to make one product become tri-band (PCB wire, etc). The thing is, tri-band product gives you another 5ghz band for front-haul, and that's what makes the difference here. Of course, we're not considering different implementation/quality between product here.

In my experience, range extender front-haul is usually buggy/bad for some reasons, but there back-haul is simply great. With RE210 1 stream 5Ghz as a back-haul for wired connection (PC to RE210 ethernet port), I could achieve nearly 200 mbps, but its 2.4ghz front-haul is just crap. When using 2.4ghz as back-haul, I still could easily go over 100 mbps. Besides, their latency is practically the same as when I connect directly to the router.

Moving on to RE9000, it gave me a bit better result (~270 mbps with 5 Ghz backhaul - maxing out my landlord Internet plan, wired connection to PC), but it could do it at worse position, and it has wayyy better front-haul (still bad compared to routers though). With that said, I don't think you should spend more on range extender unless you want better front-haul, you landlord has high Internet plan (1 gig or so) or LAN performance.

 

[distilled]

This may not be helpful, but there are a number of unlimited 4G plans that should provide more than sufficient bandwidth for work remotely, for pretty reasonable rates, maybe the $50/month range, with no contract.

It isn't free, but at least it would get you working..

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I began testing in other locations, sitting on this old clock by the window gets a throughput (how I am determining signal strength) of 390Mbps-526Mbps with no drops below 390Mbps. The backhaul has now decided to run on channel 48.

I moved all the items away from the extender and mounted it to a tripod. It is now higher with open space under the unit, which is the general area where it will stay...likely mounted to the wall on a pivoting bracket. It has jumped channels yet again now on channel 40. Throughput is now stable around 700Mbps with frequent peaks at 975Mbps! Real-world speedtest results are showing a very stable 200Mbps with as low as a 3ms peak latency. This is definitely an acceptable solution but I still want to try the RE650.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my non-technical opinion is tri-band products have no difference in term of dBi, voltage, etc compared to the other.To its base, they should have the same implementation because it's based on radio chip itself. But still, they can have different electrical configuration to make one product become tri-band (PCB wire, etc). The thing is, tri-band product gives you another 5ghz band for front-haul, and that's what makes the difference here. Of course, we're not considering different implementation/quality between product here.

In my experience, range extender front-haul is usually buggy/bad for some reasons, but there back-haul is simply great. With RE210 1 stream 5Ghz as a back-haul for wired connection (PC to RE210 ethernet port), I could achieve nearly 200 mbps, but its 2.4ghz front-haul is just crap. When using 2.4ghz as back-haul, I still could easily go over 100 mbps. Besides, their latency is practically the same as when I connect directly to the router.

Moving on to RE9000, it gave me a bit better result (~270 mbps with 5 Ghz backhaul - maxing out my landlord Internet plan, wired connection to PC), but it could do it at worse position, and it has wayyy better front-haul (still bad compared to routers though). With that said, I don't think you should spend more on range extender unless you want better front-haul, you landlord has high Internet plan (1 gig or so) or LAN performance.

I agree with you, which is why I decided to skip testing the EX8000. Its too bad you cant use multiple radios for the backhaul though, in a load balancing fashion...maybe one radio per channel.

I also agree with your fronthaul observations, mine comes nowhere near the 450Mbps it claims with 2.4Ghz at a perfect distance (more like 100Mbps). However that is on 2x2 and maybe 3x3 is better...but one more antenna does not account for my missing 100Mbps ISP speed (200Mbps total). I read a lot of the bad reviews on mesh extenders and it seems like the biggest complaint is them flat out dying, and those cases are likely when used as a mesh extender with a bunch of devices both on 2.4 GHz and 5GHz fronthauls. The units probably get hot because that is a lot of wireless data to flow through a single device like this, therefor if used as a backhaul only on Ethernet they should be perfect. I am getting a latency as low as 4ms which is in agreement with your findings.

I am surprised even your RE9000 does not have a good fronthaul, it may be a limitation of the technology. Normal wireless routers and APs dont have so many radios running in proximity of each other. I think spending more on a range extender is worth it only if I buy an RE650, because it provides me with a 4x4 backhaul on 5GHz compared to the 3x3 I am using now...and yes my landlords AP is 4x4 compatible on 5GHz. The antennas on the RE650 are also external and appear to be movable for fine tuning. It has over 50,000 Amazon reviews!

This may not be helpful, but there are a number of unlimited 4G plans that should provide more than sufficient bandwidth for work remotely, for pretty reasonable rates, maybe the $50/month range, with no contract.

It isn't free, but at least it would get you working..

Not worth it, I need a connection for personal use too and I will hit my monthly bandwidth cap in just a few days throttling my speeds down to soup cans and a string. As I stated above, I am getting over 100Mbps for free.

 

[Klueless]

EX6400 ... an acceptable solution but I still want to try the RE650

I've been enjoying this thread (at your expense : -) and ... the winner is ...

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I've been enjoying this thread (at your expense : -) and ... the winner is ...

Hah, I am glad its helping someone.

So my TP-LINK RE650 arrived. First impressions are the packaging was a lot nicer than Netgear's. The photos of the RE650 online make it appear the chassis and antennas are made of aluminum but I was surprised to see its just gray plastic. However the weight of the RE650 is like comparing a brick to a piece of Styrofoam, its so much heavier than the Netgear...a little thicker in dimension too.

Interestingly the status page shows dual backhaul radios so this may even be a quadband mesh extender with 4 radios! I am curious if the 5GHz backhaul traffic is capable of crossing over onto the 2.4GHz fronthaul AP though. There are some things I already do not like about this RE650 though in comparison to the Netgear, for one there is no signal throughput on this dashboard and I am not even sure those 4 yellow and blue signal bars are even an accurate representation of the signal because when I chose a host network it showed the SSID I am connected to as having I think 1/4 signal bars which is weak but the status lights are blue on the unit so its happy with the backhaul signal strength. Another thing I do not like is when choosing a host network SSID it does not list the channel that SSID is on. Where the Netgear had two channels per SSID to choose from. The next thing I dislike about the RE650 configuration is I am unable to set my own password for the fronthaul "extended network" which is something I was able to do with the Netgear, so I will certainly be using my own AP.

I was really hoping this unit would somehow be able to use both/dual backhauls for the same connection, but I clearly have to choose my backhaul radio for use with the Ethernet port. So I will likely disable the 2.4GHz backhaul completely to keep the unit running cooler, hopefully as I mentioned above the 5GHz backhaul traffic will cross over to the 2.4GHz fronthaul radio. I do not have any real-world performance or speed tests yet but I will post my results soon...

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Alright I have had a few days to mess with the RE650 and I am not all that impressed with its performance. I did disable the 2.4GHz backhaul and to answer my question above the 5GHz backhaul traffic did carry over to the 2.4GHz fronthaul, it actually doubled the speed of the 2.4GHz AP. However it seemed to cause a bit of instability when monitoring the status page because there is a yellow triangle with an exclamation point inside of it that comes and goes on the backhaul link status...it does not cause any real-world performance instability though that I have noticed.

This RE650 requires a lot more fine tuning to achieve the same results I had with the EX6400 almost out of the box. I find the download speed with the RE650 more consistently stable @ 200Mbps almost regardless of placement and antenna positions. However the upload speed is not as easy to obtain as the EX6400 because placement and antenna position have a huge impact ranging from 80Mbps-200Mbps.

So far this is the best antenna configuration I have found, and I have tried every combination multiple times. It has taken persistent repeated speed tests to paint an analytical picture of real-world performance. From the scientific theory side, these cup lids show how WiFi signals are transmitted and received from antennas. The red arrow indicates the direction of my landlords AP I am connecting to, which is in the direction of the bottom right window corner. Having antennas on two axis's ensures I align at least 2/4 antennas with the AP's antennas. More updates to come...

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

So the system is complete, I ran some tests with the RE650 between the window and blinds netting the best results at a stable 200Mbps both ways.

I ended up using a cheap Archer A6 router for NAT and as my AP...it may not have the best 802.11AC performance but all I really need it for is 802.11N to get my phone connected. I got a little carried away when I discovered a blank plate on the wall right where I planned to mount the router, along with another blank plate at the bottom front of the HVAC closet to the right. I was able to pull cables down the wall between the two existing openings!