Wndr37av?

[physicsguy]

Does anyone know anything about the Netgear WNDR37AV available at amazon and listed at netgear site? Is it a WNDR3700 v1, renamed until depleted? If so, I will buy one ($129 at amazon). If not, what differentiates it from a WNDR3700 (v1 or v2)? No mention of this model in SNB reviews.

Thanks for any info. I am hoping to pick up a WNDR3700v1 and am wondering if this is one way to do that.

 

[claykin]

The 37AV is the 3700V1 with a lifetime warranty. When the 37AV first shipped it came with different firmware than the 3700, but now they are using the same. There's no difference but the longer warranty is probably a good reason to choose it over the 3700.

I suspect at some point the 37AV will ship with the 3700 V2 hardware. It may already be shipping with V2 hardware.

 

[physicsguy]

Netgear is really making a confusing mess. I went to Fry's today and found a 37AV box. It listed the contents alternately as an "N600 3700". But the memory was listed as 8MB like the v1, not the 16MB of the v2. But "N600" label was adopted with the v2. So who knows what is in the box? Maybe a hybrid: v2 with less memory. Worst of all worlds.

 

[bimmerdriver]

I purchased a WNDR3700 a couple of months ago. When I registered it, I found it that Netgear had changed the name to WNDR37AV. Just after I purchased it, they announced the WNDR3700v2, and the WNDR3800 (which externally appears to be based on the same hardware as the WNDR3700v2) not long after, followed by the WNDR4000. Netgear just released new firmware for the WNDR37AV and it still has problems. Considering there are three newer models out and how many months it took them to come out with the firmware, it could be a very long time (if ever) before another version of firmware is released. If I were you, I would not purchase one of these routers, at least not without a 100% unconditional money back guarantee. Be aware that there are reports on the netgear forum that some users are purchasing WNDR37AV to avoid the problems of the WNDR3700v2, only to find a v2 inside the box. The WNDR3700v1 / WNDR37AV is a dead product, why would you purchase one when you can get a new product from Netgear or better yet, another vendor?

 

[physicsguy]

Because the v1 according to test reports here was arguably the best wireless dual band router with gigabit wired ports to date, as far as stable wireless throughput on both bands.

If you have a v1 with problems, it is either a defective unit or they really screwed things up with newer firmware. Tim, one of the moderators, mentioned that his was rock solid with firmware that ended in "48." I don't remember the whole version number.

 

[claykin]

I often find with wireless that one persons misery is another persons dream come true. You just cannot be all things to all people. I have used a handful of WNDR3700 and haven't had a single complaint yet.

 

[bimmerdriver]

I'm not saying the WNDR3700v1 / WNDR37AV is a bad router. I'm saying that the support Netgear provides for it is terrible and that considering they have announced the WNDR3700v2, followed by the WNDR3800 and the WNDR4000, you should look it as a router that was good if not the best in its time, but its time is running out.

Even near end of life, the latest firmware does not fix a lot of widely reported problems and it is not stable. A few days ago, mine dropped all wireless connections and hung so bad I had to power cycle it to get the GUI to respond. I'm not using USB or DLNA, but others who are are reporting a lot of problems with that as well. I do not have high hopes Netgear will give it much more attention with new routers on the way.

Personally, I don't understand why router manufacturers insist on trying to turn a router into a print / file / media server in the first place. I wish they would concentrate on making routers that do the basic things like good wireless, port forwarding, DHCP reservations (something else that is still broken in the latest firmware release for the WNDR3700v1 / WNDR37AV), IGMP and VPN. This router is how old and they still don't have reservations working? How hard can that be?

I used dd-wrt on an old beater WRT54G and it was rock solid. The only fault I had with it was the wired and wireless speed. The software was rich with features and generally problem free. It ran for months at a time. Why can't Netgear and Linksys do that?

 

[claykin]

Have you tried the latest 1.0.7.98 firmware? http://kb.netgear.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/18632

Its not clear if the 3800 is a new router or a 3700 with new features thrown into the firmware? I don't see anything int he spec that indicates its any better than the 3700.

 

[claykin]

Personally, I don't understand why router manufacturers insist on trying to turn a router into a print / file / media server in the first place. I wish they would concentrate on making routers that do the basic things like good wireless, port forwarding, DHCP reservations (something else that is still broken in the latest firmware release for the WNDR3700v1 / WNDR37AV), IGMP and VPN. This router is how old and they still don't have reservations working? How hard can that be?

I agree with you that router manufacturers should stay away from providing NAS/print server type functionality at least until it can be done correctly. I've yet to find an implementation that was worth 2 beans.

I suspect they add it because they are trying to differentiate their products in the eyes of unsuspecting consumers.

 

[bimmerdriver]

Have you tried the latest 1.0.7.98 firmware? http://kb.netgear.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/18632

Its not clear if the 3800 is a new router or a 3700 with new features thrown into the firmware? I don't see anything int he spec that indicates its any better than the 3700.

I'm using the latest firmware. It's a mixed bag. The router fell down and I had to reboot it a couple days after I upgraded it. It also has the same stupid bugs in the DHCP reservation code. (How hard can that be?) The USB and DLNA stuff is apparently not much better, but I don't use it. I'm not sure if the IPV6 support will prove to work or not. I reported the problems to Netgear and I got a very non-committal response as to whether there will be another release of firmware. I am not counting on it.

It's already well known that the 3700v1 and the 37AV are exactly the same, but the 3700v2 has different hardware from the 3700v1. Based on the photos on the Netgear website, the 3800 appears to have the same hardware as the 3700v2. It would not suprise me in the least if the hardware is identical and the only difference is firmware. The 4000 seems to be different from both.

 

[bimmerdriver]

I agree with you that router manufacturers should stay away from providing NAS/print server type functionality at least until it can be done correctly. I've yet to find an implementation that was worth 2 beans.

I suspect they add it because they are trying to differentiate their products in the eyes of unsuspecting consumers.

I think you're spot on. I wish they would try to differentiate themselves by providing good support rather than by providing useless features that don't work reliably.

 

[htismaqe]

I agree with you that router manufacturers should stay away from providing NAS/print server type functionality at least until it can be done correctly. I've yet to find an implementation that was worth 2 beans.

I suspect they add it because they are trying to differentiate their products in the eyes of unsuspecting consumers.

I don't have a problem with adding the functionality.

I have a problem with them bolting it on to an old build of OpenWRT and calling it good.

The BIGGEST issue here is that companies are trying to differentiate themselves to their consumers while internally standardizing on software implementations that are either cheap or free.

I love Linux as much as the next guy but sometimes I miss the days where a purpose-built piece of networking hardware had it's own purpose-built operating system and everything actually WORKED.

I'm using the latest firmware.

What's up bimmer?

Are you using the 1.0.0.8 v2 or 1.0.7.98 v1 firmware.

Because from what I've seen in the "other" forum, it isn't a mixed bag. It's a handful of users having issues post-upgrade. There's a thread there with a dozen people that haven't had to reboot once since upgrading - some of them installed 7.98 as early as February 4th.

It's already well known that the 3700v1 and the 37AV are exactly the same, but the 3700v2 has different hardware from the 3700v1. Based on the photos on the Netgear website, the 3800 appears to have the same hardware as the 3700v2. It would not suprise me in the least if the hardware is identical and the only difference is firmware. The 4000 seems to be different from both.

The way they handled the 3700v1/37AV thing was rotten at it's core.

You know me from the "other" forum and you know I don't really have a problem with badge engineering/rebranding. But I also FIRMLY believe it should be 100% transparent and Netgear wasn't. In fact, they were flat deceptive about it and now they're being deceptive about the v1 to v2 transition too.

 

[bimmerdriver]

I don't have a problem with adding the functionality.

I have a problem with them bolting it on to an old build of OpenWRT and calling it good.

The BIGGEST issue here is that companies are trying to differentiate themselves to their consumers while internally standardizing on software implementations that are either cheap or free.

I love Linux as much as the next guy but sometimes I miss the days where a purpose-built piece of networking hardware had it's own purpose-built operating system and everything actually WORKED.



What's up bimmer?

Are you using the 1.0.0.8 v2 or 1.0.7.98 v1 firmware.

Because from what I've seen in the "other" forum, it isn't a mixed bag. It's a handful of users having issues post-upgrade. There's a thread there with a dozen people that haven't had to reboot once since upgrading - some of them installed 7.98 as early as February 4th.



The way they handled the 3700v1/37AV thing was rotten at it's core.

You know me from the "other" forum and you know I don't really have a problem with badge engineering/rebranding. But I also FIRMLY believe it should be 100% transparent and Netgear wasn't. In fact, they were flat deceptive about it and now they're being deceptive about the v1 to v2 transition too.

Hey, fancy meeting you here.

I don't think we are that far apart.

I would rather router manufacturers stick with routers and not add "me-too" features, particularly if they don't intend to make them work properly.

I think it's pathetic that over a year after the WNDR3700 was introduced, the router is only just now at a reasonable level of reliability. Maybe that is overly generous. How can they possibly still not have DHCP reservations and the attached device list working?

I think what Netgear is doing with the WNDR3700 / WNDR37AV is despicable. When I purchased my router in a box labeled WNDR3700 in an enclosure labeled WNDR3700, but it registered as WNDR37AV, I contacted tech support to find out why this was the case. They lied to me point blank and did not disclose what they were doing. Had I figured out what they were doing before the money back guarantee period ran out, I would have returned the router immediately. (I got stuck with it because I was overseas for almost 3 weeks after I got the router and didn't have time to deal with it right away.)

I know I'm not the only Netgear customer that is angry about this, but a number of my posts on their forum were censored by moderators. (I am not referring to Mars Mug. He and I had an offline discussion about it.) Apparently Netgear does not like unhappy customers explaining why they are unhappy, but they refuse to address the real issue which is that they lie to their customers. I escalated this to the Netgear "customer support advocate" but it was a complete waste of time. All Netgear would've had to do in my case was apologize for lying to me and offer me either a refund or an exchange for a WNDR3700v2. Had they done that, I would have been 100% satisfied. (When I'm satisfied I tell others. When I'm not, I also tell others.) Unfortunately for them, they dug their heels in to save a few dollars (one of these units probably costs them $10 to make), but I have told enough people to purchase Linksys routers instead of Netgear that it will end up costing them 10 x that amount. Nice job Netgear.

I've heard a lot people say that all of the consumer products manufacturers do this sort of thing. That is exactly the issue. If Netgear decided to focus on providing customer satisfaction instead of playing games like this, they could easily dominate the market because word of mouth spreads a good reputation as well as a bad reputation.

 

[htismaqe]

How can they possibly still not have DHCP reservations and the attached device list working?

That's just the thing - I've NEVER had problems with DHCP reservations or attached devices and I ran .55NA for months. I'm on 7.98NA now and just checked the attached devices twice - they're all there and they're all correct.

I think what Netgear is doing with the WNDR3700 / WNDR37AV is despicable.

You won't get any disagreement from me on this one.

I know I'm not the only Netgear customer that is angry about this, but a number of my posts on their forum were censored by moderators. (I am not referring to Mars Mug. He and I had an offline discussion about it.) Apparently Netgear does not like unhappy customers explaining why they are unhappy, but they refuse to address the real issue which is that they lie to their customers.

I know you and I have had our disagreements over there - I've had it out with more than a few angry people over there. I totally understand how you feel but that forum is a user-to-user forum. Netgear employees moderate it but if they ever post there, they don't do it openly. That's why I and others sometimes appear defensive when people show up ranting and raving - we don't get paid, we truly enjoy hanging out there and helping people. It's discouraging to be bombarded with rhetorical complaints because none of us can fix anything and Netgear has many times just left us there to fend for ourselves. Not a good feeling at all.

I've heard a lot people say that all of the consumer products manufacturers do this sort of thing. That is exactly the issue. If Netgear decided to focus on providing customer satisfaction instead of playing games like this, they could easily dominate the market because word of mouth spreads a good reputation as well as a bad reputation.

The problem is that the "market" just isn't there. Margins in consumer networking...heck, margins in ENTERPRISE networking hardware are so razor thing that dominating the market just really doesn't mean much.

 

[bimmerdriver]

I know you and I have had our disagreements over there - I've had it out with more than a few angry people over there. I totally understand how you feel but that forum is a user-to-user forum. Netgear employees moderate it but if they ever post there, they don't do it openly. That's why I and others sometimes appear defensive when people show up ranting and raving - we don't get paid, we truly enjoy hanging out there and helping people. It's discouraging to be bombarded with rhetorical complaints because none of us can fix anything and Netgear has many times just left us there to fend for ourselves. Not a good feeling at all.

The problem is that the "market" just isn't there. Margins in consumer networking...heck, margins in ENTERPRISE networking hardware are so razor thing that dominating the market just really doesn't mean much.

Well, I guess everyone's experience is unique and everyone's opinion is based on their unique experience.

As for angry people "ranting and raving" on the Netgear forum, I don't see why you should take that personally or why you should feel compelled to defend Netgear. If anything, you should be upset at Netgear that their only response is to censor posts that are "unflattering to Netgear". Netgear is a big corporation and like any corporation, it makes decisions that effect its customers. My impression is that Netgear doesn't value its customers and doesn't care if they are unsatisfied and switch brands as a result. This is a characteristic that is common among telephone companies which often experience high turn over due to customer dissatisfaction. It's called churn. This opinion I have of Netgear is based on my experience with their customer service which I think is terrible. They have not resolved a single issue I have raised with them. My impression is that their philosophy is to systematically and consistently do as little as they can get away with, hence they are long on words and short on actions. If you read any email from Netgear tech support, they all read exactly the same as if they are based on a template. I would not be surprised if they are almost completely automated and contain as little input from actual personnel as possible. They all say "sorry for the inconvenience", but promise nothing. There is a word for this, it's called stonewalling. (Defn of Stonewall: To refuse to answer or cooperate.) Netgear systematically stonewalls its customers. When I report a problem, I don't want an apology for the "inconvenience", I want action. I find it insulting for them to refer to lying to me as an "inconvenience. I don't know about you, but when I get stonewalled and I'm left with no recourse whatsoever, it makes me angry. The same thing is what triggers what is euphemistically referred to as "air rage" by airlines. Do airlines think that normal people will just get enraged on an airplane for no reason?

Netgear does not provide email addresses for the CEO or VP of Sales or the VP of Operations. I think this is intentional, but it is also cowardly. Netgear provides a forum and when people are left with no other place to vent - even knowing that Netgear doesn't give a d*mn what they think - people will use that forum to vent their frustration. If you don't like that, I'm sorry you feel that way, but with all due respect, you should take it up with Netgear. If they cared about their customers - particularly customers like you who are their advocates - they would show their face on the forum and defend their actions, not lurk in the background like a bunch of cowards and leave well-meaning people like you to get bruised on their behalf. They are the ones who are driving customers to the point of "ranting and raving". They are the ones you should be angry at, not customers who are legitimately dissatisfied as a result of their experience with Netgear.

As for the your comment that the market is not there, I respectfully disagree. Virtually every market has a range of service providers, some who provide good service in order to retain their customer base and others who provide poor service and churn through customers. There are very few markets where there is not room for a range of service levels. I work for a company that charges more, but provides a high quality product and a high level of customer service. Sometimes we lose to a lower cost competitor that provides a lower quality product and lower quality support. We usually get those customers back in the long run. When the WNDR3700 was introduced, it was Netgear's flagship high performance router and it commanded a comparatively high price, yet Netgear's support for the product is terrible.

 

[htismaqe]

As for angry people "ranting and raving" on the Netgear forum, I don't see why you should take that personally or why you should feel compelled to defend Netgear.

I think you misunderstood.

None of us (that I know of, at least) take it personally. It's just extremely frustrating because it's a user-to-user forum, so we can't fix firmware issues or respond to customer service complaints. The board ends up getting overrun with 1-sided rants and we end up losing focus on the actual purpose of the board - users helping other users.

If anything, you should be upset at Netgear that their only response is to censor posts that are "unflattering to Netgear".

Trust me, being caught in the middle isn't fun.

This opinion I have of Netgear is based on my experience with their customer service which I think is terrible. They have not resolved a single issue I have raised with them. My impression is that their philosophy is to systematically and consistently do as little as they can get away with, hence they are long on words and short on actions.

I hear you. Unfortunately, complaining about it on the Netgear message boards won't change that - it just makes the rest of us miserable too.

Netgear does not provide email addresses for the CEO or VP of Sales or the VP of Operations.

It wouldn't matter if they did - most large corporations that "publish" those types of email addresses don't actually deliver those emails to the CEO or anything.

I think this is intentional, but it is also cowardly. Netgear provides a forum and when people are left with no other place to vent - even knowing that Netgear doesn't give a d*mn what they think - people will use that forum to vent their frustration. If you don't like that, I'm sorry you feel that way, but with all due respect, you should take it up with Netgear.

So basically you're saying that you don't give a damn about your fellow user. If you're going to suffer, EVERYBODY is going to suffer. Unbelievable.

If they cared about their customers - particularly customers like you who are their advocates - they would show their face on the forum and defend their actions, not lurk in the background like a bunch of cowards and leave well-meaning people like you to get bruised on their behalf. They are the ones who are driving customers to the point of "ranting and raving". They are the ones you should be angry at, not customers who are legitimately dissatisfied as a result of their experience with Netgear.

Again, it's a user-to-user forum. We have no recourse with Netgear - that's the purpose of the my.netgear.com support site. They're not going to post there - it's a user-to-user forum.

I'm not angry at you or anyone else. I'm just discouraged that the overall tenor of our message board has taken a turn for the worse and rather than continue to attempt to address it with Netgear directly, you and others have taken a "scorched Earth" tact.

As for the your comment that the market is not there, I respectfully disagree. Virtually every market has a range of service providers, some who provide good service in order to retain their customer base and others who provide poor service and churn through customers. There are very few markets where there is not room for a range of service levels. I work for a company that charges more, but provides a high quality product and a high level of customer service. Sometimes we lose to a lower cost competitor that provides a lower quality product and lower quality support. We usually get those customers back in the long run. When the WNDR3700 was introduced, it was Netgear's flagship high performance router and it commanded a comparatively high price, yet Netgear's support for the product is terrible.

I think you missed the point. Varying levels of service has nothing to do with it. Consumer networking gear is not a "profitable" business. They're widgets. Providing high-quality service needs to be subsidized by the product offering and margins on the actual hardware are just razor thin. You're going to see more and more companies doing it the way Netgear does. Just go over to the Linksys forums to see...

 

[bimmerdriver]

I think you misunderstood.

None of us (that I know of, at least) take it personally. It's just extremely frustrating because it's a user-to-user forum, so we can't fix firmware issues or respond to customer service complaints. The board ends up getting overrun with 1-sided rants and we end up losing focus on the actual purpose of the board - users helping other users.



Trust me, being caught in the middle isn't fun.



I hear you. Unfortunately, complaining about it on the Netgear message boards won't change that - it just makes the rest of us miserable too.



It wouldn't matter if they did - most large corporations that "publish" those types of email addresses don't actually deliver those emails to the CEO or anything.



So basically you're saying that you don't give a damn about your fellow user. If you're going to suffer, EVERYBODY is going to suffer. Unbelievable.



Again, it's a user-to-user forum. We have no recourse with Netgear - that's the purpose of the my.netgear.com support site. They're not going to post there - it's a user-to-user forum.

I'm not angry at you or anyone else. I'm just discouraged that the overall tenor of our message board has taken a turn for the worse and rather than continue to attempt to address it with Netgear directly, you and others have taken a "scorched Earth" tact.



I think you missed the point. Varying levels of service has nothing to do with it. Consumer networking gear is not a "profitable" business. They're widgets. Providing high-quality service needs to be subsidized by the product offering and margins on the actual hardware are just razor thin. You're going to see more and more companies doing it the way Netgear does. Just go over to the Linksys forums to see...

We obviously do not agree on some of these issues. I have just as much right to my opinion as you do and notwithstanding censorship by Netgear's moderators on their forum, just as much right to post my opinion as you do. Since it doesn't appear likely one of us will convince the other to change, let's just agree to disagree and move on.