86U, 7800, or RT2600AC

[jconly]

Well, I've spent the entire day digging through this site and it's forum.
Wonderful resource..

Used it years ago when I picked up my N66U.
It's time to upgrade though.

I live in a 2000sf duplex in NYC. Tons of interference from every direction.
I've been running the N66U upstairs in the living room, and using an OLD WAP4400 (wired) mounted on the wall downstairs. The 4400N has been horrible... unsupported for years. Basically just good enough to get text's, emails, and WIFI calling downstairs. (There's no cell service in my apartment at all... the building is masonry, metal framing with drywall inside.) Forget about streaming Plex to the ChromeCast or even sending audio over airplay. Can't take it anymore.

Honestly, I've been totally pleased with the Merlin firmware on the ASUS though, and it's a great UI. I set up my mothers home with a N66U too so it's easy to manage the same product for her. VPN performance isn't so hot though. Always seems to max the processor when I run the server, so I've relied on port forwarding. Not so comfortable about that in today's environment.

The router in the living room lives with the rest of the entertainment setup.
I have a switch wired to it, which branches off to all the typical devices in the vicinity. Smart TV, Apple TV, Receiver, PS4, etc. Then I have another wired run from the router to a switch in the office, which hosts multiple machines. One is a workstation running as a server 24/7... Not only does it host our PLEX, and all my other files, but I VNC in to remotely render & deliver files to clients, sync with my invoicing software, etc. You get the idea. Too much stuff port forwarded.s. I should probably focus on good VPN performance huh?!

There's also a good mix of WiFI clients roaming and fixed around the apartment. The usual suspects I suppose. Laptops, tablets, phones... cameras, thermostats, printers, LED lighting controllers, etc. Aside from downstairs though, streaming music and PLEX to the tv, there's no real heavy bandwidth use over WiFi. I've got upstairs pretty well wired.

About 22 clients at the moment with just me on one machine in the office. I'd imagine it peaks around 40 at times. But I digress.....

There's a ton of chatter on here comparing the 7800 to the 86U, but nobody has really mentioned the Synology 2600 despite its great rankings. I know people are recommending the 86U for it's hardware supported VPN performance, but I hate the form factor. Nobody has anything bad to say about the 7800... but what about the Synology?!

I'm really intrigued by its UI and (from what I've read) frequent firmware updates. How does this guy stack up in the VPN department?

Right now, I'm hoping any one of these replacements will let me eliminate the AP downstairs. I'd imagine the floors are concrete under the hardwood, signal doesn't travel well... but fingers crossed. That said if I do need to place another AP downstairs, I gotta find a good mix of compatibility. It would be nice to eliminate the wiring, but I'm fine running POE down there if I need to. Was thinking maybe I could get away with using the N66U down there, but I'd really love to have everything on one SSID with good roaming support. I hate having to change networks when I go back and forth.


So, what do you guys think?
I'd love your recommendations... hopefully I provided enough background info.

Thanks in advance!

-Justin

 

[Easy Rhino]

Since you're in interference-central, you will probably need to stick with 5ghz signals. And 5ghz probably won't penetrate your floor very well to get downstairs. So wiring an AP is probably your more robust solution.

You're right, the Netgear and Synology units basically equivalent hardware. I'm awaiting shipping on my 7800, so I can't give you personal experience on either. Main difference seems to be firmware. Synology seems to offer better features if you're a router geek (their VPN offerings might be interesting), and Netgear's reputation with firmware is spotty.

However, the 7800 has a lot of people using it, so you have people like Voxel tweaking the firmware, and DDWRT is available too.

Trying out the N66U as a downstairs AP is definitely worth a shot if you want to save a few bucks. Unfortunately it's too old to support Asus's AIMesh features so no (potential) synergy if you got an Asus main router. Then again, it should still work as a basic AP... set the same SSID and the wifi clients will probably eventually roam. Maybe... Stupid clients.

 

[jconly]

Yea, 5ghz has never made it downstairs.
I'm curious about these DFS channels, which I THINK all three support?
I'll certainly give the N66U a go as an AP, but I've never had good luck with our Apple devices roaming properly... but maybe if I adjust the signal downstairs signal power I might have better luck.


Did some more reading LATE last night on the Synology, and it seems people are pretty disappointed with the performance of the IPS add ons. Can't say I'm surprised...
But I guess that's code that can be installed in routers manually anyway? Saw Merlin mention something about that last night.
I did find my N66U to have been hacked with that Korean type and VPN setup...
Hence why I really want / need to turn off all ports forwarding and web interfaces and rely on VPN.

If the aftermarket firmware scene is as solid for the Netgear as was/is the Merlin firmware, then that's a serious pro.
I suppose I can live with the crappier interface... so long as I still get the same feature set. Traffic monitors, etc.

I can't help but wonder if the hardware in the 7800 and Synology might not be robust enough to run IPS AND VPN client.
Not sure if the 86U could handle that either? The idea of dropping $500 some on a router with quad core etc is painful though.
Would probably be smart for me to run two APs and a dedicated router.. but that's a whole other world I don't know anything about.

Honestly, it's all a bit dizzying.

 

[Easy Rhino]

Help me out, what's IPS?

What's your purchased internet speed, anyway? VPN only has to be as fast as that.

I don't think one of the quad core (GT 5300, etc) would actually help you out that much. I read somewhere that openvpn performance is single threaded. If your needs exceed a consumer router, you'd probably need a standalone wired router (or DIY one) with more performance

 

[jconly]

IPS - Intrusion Prevention System I believe.
It's an add on package that the Synology has. That and IDS. Intrusion detection system.
I forget the name of the software package, but it's basically open-source (or similar) code.

And you're right, thanks for reminding me. I did see that VPN can only utilize on core.
Question is, are the rest of the router functions multi-threaded? If so still leaves three cores available, vs one... but maybe I'm thinking of this wrong.

I have a 200/35 connection... valid point. Seems I would be limited on the uplink side for sure.
Can't really do much better here than 400/40. Seems ridiculous there's no Gb options here for my place in Brooklyn.
I'll try to re-dig up the figures I found last night, comparing 7800 & 86U VPN speeds. As it stands now on my N66U, utilizing the VPN as either a client OR server maxes my CPU to 100% and I'd imagine that's what brings things to a crawl.

All this asside... 86U vs 88U.
Looks like 3x3 vs 4x4 radios... but does the 88U retain the same VPN performance people praise the 86U for?
EDIT: Turned this up.. AC88U; 50 to 60 Mbps, AC86U 140 to 160 Mbps regarding VPN speeds. Answered that question. Looks like wireless performance would probably be the only advantage to the 88U with the 4x4.

 

[Easy Rhino]

Naw the 88U is a slower processor, 1.4ghz vs 1.8ghz, and seems to be a slightly older ARM architecture.

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wir...-band-wireless-ac3100-gigabit-router-reviewed

note the 86U is 3x3 on the 2.4ghz but 4x4 on the 5ghz, so it's kind of a weird design. But it works pretty well.

 

[jconly]

Yea, you know.. the more I really dive into this, I'm beginning to think the 86U might be the way to go.
Just took a peek at the few wired routers on the charts... they seem pretty complex to setup. I'm sure I could swing it, but seems like a major time suck I don't want to get involved in.

As it currently stands, I have solid WiFi coverage, and decent enough throughput upstairs with my N66U (again, mainly web surfing on tablets, phones, and laptops)
Maybe I don't need the extra WiFi performance of the 7800 over the 86U.

Drag that N66U, or even an AC AP downstairs, and I'm probably quite solidly covered.
Question then becomes, can I benefit with better roaming choosing a POE AC AP?
Or can AIMesh be utilized with an ethernet backhaul? I'd imagine I wouldn't want to run wireless backhaul on dual band routers / APs

 

[roscolo]

Similar set up to yours. I've been running an rtac66u for a few years. Looking to upgrade and I've been so impressed with my Synology NAS I'm definitely going go with the Synology RT2600AC as my next router.

 

[jconly]

Similar set up to yours. I've been running an rtac66u for a few years. Looking to upgrade and I've been so impressed with my Synology NAS I'm definitely going go with the Synology RT2600AC as my next router.

Yea, I've heard nothing but good things about Synology... so I'm certainly intrigued over the Netgear. I've never been a fan, and I'd imagine their firmware is a much larger target than others.
I gotta try and pull up VPN figures for all three.

 

[Treadler]

Yea, 5ghz has never made it downstairs.
I'm curious about these DFS channels, which I THINK all three support?
I'll certainly give the N66U a go as an AP, but I've never had good luck with our Apple devices roaming properly... but maybe if I adjust the signal downstairs signal power I might have better luck.


Did some more reading LATE last night on the Synology, and it seems people are pretty disappointed with the performance of the IPS add ons. Can't say I'm surprised...
But I guess that's code that can be installed in routers manually anyway? Saw Merlin mention something about that last night.
I did find my N66U to have been hacked with that Korean type and VPN setup...
Hence why I really want / need to turn off all ports forwarding and web interfaces and rely on VPN.

If the aftermarket firmware scene is as solid for the Netgear as was/is the Merlin firmware, then that's a serious pro.
I suppose I can live with the crappier interface... so long as I still get the same feature set. Traffic monitors, etc.

I can't help but wonder if the hardware in the 7800 and Synology might not be robust enough to run IPS AND VPN client.
Not sure if the 86U could handle that either? The idea of dropping $500 some on a router with quad core etc is painful though.
Would probably be smart for me to run two APs and a dedicated router.. but that's a whole other world I don't know anything about.

Honestly, it's all a bit dizzying.

The AC86 is totally unfazed by IPS (AiProtect in Asus speak), & from what I hear, is the go to for VPN, although I don’t use VPN myself.

My testing with/without AiProtect, throughput identical.

 

[avtella]

From a purely raw performance aspect the 1.7Ghz Krait 300 in the IPQ8065 of the R7800/RT2600AC is like 65% faster than the 1.4Ghz Cortex A9 in the Asus AC88U and Netgear R8500. The 86U's Cortex A53 CPU is also roughly about the same as the 88U clock for clock performance wise though with a 400 Mhz boost, but it has hardware AES acceleration making it the faster than the previously mentioned units when it comes to OpenVPN.

So VPN Performance wise in order:
AC86U/GT5300AC----> R7800/Synology RT2600 AC----> AC88U/R8500/RT5300AC

WiFi performance wise I usually see the R7800 still top the charts at least on 5Ghz and the GT5300 being pretty close. The 86U is also relatively decent at 5Ghz performance.

AC86U is probably the most well rounded unit cost/performance/support/UI settings wise.

However open source support is not very good on Broadcom units like the AC86U espcially the lack of properly working WiFi on OpenWRT. On the Open Source side the Qualcomm units are much better with WiFi performance near stock, with regular improvements to the ath10k WiFi firmware. Overall I feel the QCA9984 WiFi chip in the R7800/RT2600AC is still the best in the consumer space and luxury features like HT160 and MU-MIMO actually work.

 

[DigitalFreedom]

These are all great routers, so it comes down to personal choice and what works best for your needs! I know it’s easier said, then done. It literally took me near a year to decide on a router. I had the same choices as you and ended up deciding between the Synology and Asus RT-AC86U.

Mr. Merlin or whatever his real name is. Posted the 86U is one of the best units for VPNs, with best speed. From what I read up on these forums.

The routing, WiFi and feature sets are relatively close, with these units. Although some functions are still rough around the edges with the 86U, as you mentioned. Such as the OpenWRT and related WiFi. The firmware is constantly being tweaked to excel these features, with AsusWRT/Merlin, so it’s only a matter of time. Before they are improved upon, if not already corrected via recent log.

I ultimately chose the 86U, which I just received a few days ago. I chose it based on strength of processor, as well as feature set. VPN speed, along with support from AsusWRT/ Merlin and snbforums helped considerably.

WRT and Tomato are well above my extremly limited tech knowledge. So I think it’s fantastic to have these brilliant and talented people contributing freely. Helping everyone via constant updating and improvements with Merlin. With the addition of cooperation from AsusWRT and its support.

I am a newbie and rather intimidated by most of this and still trying to research. How to flash, what firmware to install, settings to input with the RT-AC86U So I’m afraid I can’t give you much depth.

Although my router is operating at stock level, with only changes being. The router/network names and passwords, as well as disabling WPS. My RT-AC86U is excellent for WiFi. I have a 2 story 2600sf home with 12 clients. With ISP provided 300 speed, simultaneous movie streaming and gaming with multiple clients, do not slow anything down enough to notice. I rarely see buffering, if at all with multiple streaming/gaming connections. Compared to my other setup, that would buffer with movie streaming and a single connection.

Whatever works best for you, will be the right choice. I hope my limited knowledge and answers helped you somewhat?

Best of luck!

 

[umarmung]

Edges:

• Synology RT2600ac: bandsteering with 4x4 Qualcomm WiFi (other such 4x4 Qualcomm routers like R7800 do not support bandsteering) + strong 2.4GHz
• Asus RT-AC86U: best consumer VPN performance + very strong wired performance
  
• Netgear R7800: Qualcomm Streamboost (fq_codel - one of the best, modern anti-bufferbloat technologies) + best consumer WiFi performance overall + very strong open source support

If prices of all three were identical, then the choice would be easy for the majority of typical consumers: Synology RT2600ac if you don't use client VPN on your router OR Asus RT-AC86U if you do OR Netgrear R7800 if you only want a single powerful, non-bandsteering WiFi access point and you are keen on open source.

But prices are not or at least were not remotely similar. The RT2600ac is usually very overpriced ($230-260 but now closer to $200), the R7800 used to be underpriced ($140 but now closer to $185) and the RT-AC86U can swing in price significantly ($195 to $230).

These days getting multiple APs instead of a single standalone router that does everything is becoming not only much more common but incredibly cheap. This greatly devalues a router that is only strong in WiFi and little else. Asus also have a very small but growing edge with AiMesh multi-AP support over most other standalone consumer routers.

Since from multiple unpleasant experiences, I personally trust Netgear with product and security updates about as much as I can throw them, I would only get either of the other two, unless you are happy to install open source on the Netgear at some point, in which case it is by far one of the best such routers you can buy.

 

[avtella]

R7800 has band steering, I don’t really trust band steering though as there situations where it switches to 2.4 GHz from 5Ghz when transferring large amounts of data causing slowdowns and even with other routers I’ve seen that feature cause issues. I feel it’s better for tri band routers to balance load between two 5Ghz radios. The RT2600AC has dual WAN support that’s something the R7800 doesn’t have. For open source any Qualcomm unit in general is pretty good not just the R7800.

 

[umarmung]

R7800 has band steering

Looks like you are right since the latest firmware 23-May-2018.

For open source any Qualcomm unit in general is pretty good not just the R7800.

Have you seen any open source for the Synology RT2600ac in particular?

 

[avtella]

Pretty sure LEDE-OpenWRT already does.

 

[primitivo]

For the reference I have AC56U, AC68U, AC86U and R7000, R9000 and RT2600AC.
AC86U is great overall but their FW is very buggy, lots of things are broken which Merlin tries to patch better or worse. He does excellent job and his support is the main reason of getting Asus in my opinion. Problem is with Asus mentality. Things are broken for years, like multiwan and no one gives a damn... about it. Merlin doesn't touch dual WAN related things. Latest bug I discovered is when you enable remote access with IP bind, breaks the router GUI access and reboot is required. There are many things which are buggy. Nevertheless I still prefer Asus + Merlin combo, than Tomato or DD-WRT.

Synology RT2600AC seems to be overall much better product, there is secure remote access via quickconnect + you can enable 2FA! Have not seen 2FA solution in any home router product. Things that Merlin is implementing on board of Asus routers, are already implemented in Synology and working stable which is the most important thing. GUI is excellent, clear and very easy to handle and setup everything. You can easily throw in 4G USB dongle and have it setup as a failover and it works stable, unlike Asus.

Sorry but for me Netgear routers are a complete fail with their ancient FW approach. They lack any nice features, there is no OpenVPN client built in natively, no dual wan support. The only reasonable explanation to buy Netgear is to look for some older models that support Tomato, DD-WRT or OpenWRT. But for me personally I see not point in splashing $500 for a router (R9000) to run buggy DD-WRT on it... And this is an advice from someone (me) who actually spent this kind of money for R9000....

 

[Poseidon]

Completely agree on the Synology RT2600AC router. Just got this bad boy and it's simply amazing! Best router I've ever used and loving their firmware and GUI. I've always been an Asus "fanboy" and have always used their routers but never again. Synology had converted me.

And you're spot on about Netgear. Terrible support, even worse stock firmware and cheaply made plastic exterior and way overpriced.