Article Discussion: How Many SSIDs Is Too Many?

[htismaqe]

I own a 2005 Toyota Corolla with 164K miles on it. It still gets almost 40mpg.

You can see where I'm at!

 

[stevech]

I have a 2003 Lexus ES350. 90K miles. Still fine.

 

[thiggins]

Back on topic, gentlemen, please.

 

[sfx2000]

Back on topic, gentlemen, please.

Agree... the article is focused on the 95 percent - just like Camry's or Accord's - not everyone needs a Porsche, and even there, the author recognizes that there are valid reasons not to follow general guidance.

It's an even handed approach with a good technical backstop as to why...

FWIW - a lot of guys that own Porkers, they're probably better off in a Camry, Accord, Maiibu, etc..

 

[superjet]

Thank you for this article, it helped me condense 3 APs with 5 different SSIDs into 2 SSIDs (2.4 and 5ghz) and its worked flawlessly so far, save for the Apple Time Capsule not letting go of clients very easily when it's a weaker signal.

Edit:

Cat5e/6 backhaul,
N66U Merlin as gateway, DHCP, downstairs AP
Apple Time Capsule as upstairs AP
Airport Express as AP in garage for airplay to garage stereo
3 switches here and there, managed ones and not.

 

[azazel1024]

It might be a bug. But if so, it is a bug that every client I've ever worked with has. Linux, Windows, MACs, and especially iDevices. My personal iPhone is terrible at letting go of weak signals to jump to stronger ones. Even in my own house, where there are two APs with 1 SSID. I walk from one side of the house to the other and the only way to get it to jump to the stronger signal is to turn the phones wifi off and then back on again... or wait for like 5 minutes when it will finally figure it out itself.

I don't know, I don't have a single client across iOS, Android or Windows that has this issue and that represents at least 10 wireless clients on 13 different OS (because some of them have had multiple OS versions loaded on them). They all work really well across my 3 WAPs.

One thing some people also have an issue with is that they have WAPs located TOO far apart. So there are weak areas in their house/building. So of course a client isn't going to roam if the next closest WAP is also really weak still. One 2.4->5GHz transition issue also falls back on WAPs too far apart. Sometimes the client will roam from 5GHz->2.4GHz on the existing WAP and as you move further away it'll grab on to 2.4GHz on the nearest WAP because the 5GHz band on that WAP is still just too weak. It'll then be slow to move to 5GHz, or it'll prefer 2.4GHz on that WAP because the channel utilization is low and/or both 2.4GHz and 5GHz are showing the same MCS rates. A lot of reasons. All of my devices are pretty graceful about the roaming dance and the band preference dance. I do have one or two that generally prefer 2.4GHz almost full time, but most do a good job of switching between bands and all do a good job of switching between WAPs.

 

[lo pro joe]

I would like to suggest, as the "SNB Answer Guy: How Many SSIDs Is Too Many?" article advocates, that all simultaneous dual-band Wi-Fi routers' default network configurations have a single SSID.

To be clear: I am in no way trying to suggest that a single SSID should be used in all cases.

When I originally started running a "simultaneous dual band Wi-Fi Router" about 6 years ago, I started out with a single SSID (an ESS), but ended up reconfiguring my network gear to use separate SSIDs to work around intermittent connection issues. As others have found, manually managing the network connection was a hassle for me and for others, so I kept trying a single SSID configuration and watching for problems. About 4 years ago the remaining connection issues went away, and I was able to settle on a single SSID.

Now, there are clearly those that tried running 2+ BSS on different bands as an ESS, and have suffered interoperability problems with their gear and have been forced into separate SSIDs, as I experienced some time ago. But to promote what is really a workaround for faulty STA gear as the "ideal" way things should work out-of-box is simply not appropriate. That is backing into the future.

If manufacturers of phones, laptops, printers, and all the new IoT gear on the market and coming soon is to work as simply as it can and should, then certainly a single SSID network is one of the foundations of that system. Making visible the different bands (and all the new ones coming soon to an AP near you) is to make visible things that should be invisibile to most people. Those that have suffered the interop problems see the additional cost of managing their connection simply as a cost of using Wi-Fi. But not all users should have to incur that cost, and if they experience problems, they need to vocalize those problems to the manufacturers of their gear so that that cost is made visible to those that make equipment that doesn't work as it should. The cost I am speaking of is the cost of time and unnecessary awareness. How many of our users know all the different 802.11 management frame types and the meaning of the different information elements within? Do they need to know these things?

I liken the problems people have had to the phenomenon of chronic heartburn / acid reflux. (Hang with me for a sec...) There are those that suffer from chronic acid reflux, and have to take antacids all the time. And that is unfortunate. But the ideal is to eliminate the problem, not institutionalize the problem by making all people take Prevacid every day from birth until death. That isn't solving the problem - it is concealing the problem.

 

[remixedcat]

I got a total of 8 SSIDs ha ha but that's on 2 APs and 1 router

 

[L&LD]

I liken the problems people have had to the phenomenon of chronic heartburn / acid reflux. (Hang with me for a sec...) There are those that suffer from chronic acid reflux, and have to take antacids all the time. And that is unfortunate. But the ideal is to eliminate the problem, not institutionalize the problem by making all people take Prevacid every day from birth until death. That isn't solving the problem - it is concealing the problem.

I would liken this (a single ssid) to someone that does not care to have the most performance from their network and changing to another ssid if / when they move to another area is just too bothersome for them.

The networks that I setup for customers are usually not so big in area that the main routers signal drops completely. Rather, almost everywhere that you can go on the property your devices can 'see' all three or four routers / ap's. A single ssid in those situations is a recipe for disaster, ime.

Unique ssid's that are specifically understood to be used when in certain areas is far easier to manage, teach and learn than having people complain that they are connected, but still can't browse the 'net.

I am sure the opposite of the situation above occurs at times too. But my customers and I don't have the time to be testing if a single ssid will work when they can just point to the email from 'last Friday' to let people know what they need to do to stay connected. Just select the ssid (and same password) for the area you just moved into.

 

[remixedcat]

I just get enterprise APs that are designed for that ^

 

[htismaqe]

I would liken this (a single ssid) to someone that does not care to have the most performance from their network and changing to another ssid if / when they move to another area is just too bothersome for them.

The networks that I setup for customers are usually not so big in area that the main routers signal drops completely. Rather, almost everywhere that you can go on the property your devices can 'see' all three or four routers / ap's. A single ssid in those situations is a recipe for disaster, ime.

Unique ssid's that are specifically understood to be used when in certain areas is far easier to manage, teach and learn than having people complain that they are connected, but still can't browse the 'net.

I am sure the opposite of the situation above occurs at times too. But my customers and I don't have the time to be testing if a single ssid will work when they can just point to the email from 'last Friday' to let people know what they need to do to stay connected. Just select the ssid (and same password) for the area you just moved into.

I hear what your saying but for my customers, that's just not acceptable. "So you're telling me I have to drop my VoIP call, disconnect and reconnect to the network, and then redial my call?" Useability outweighs maximum performance by quite a wide margin.

 

[L&LD]

Yes, there are always other scenarios. With my customers VoIP calls are rare and effectively non-existent.

What I would be curious about is why the users need to be walking when on a call? To look more important and / or make sure the boss sees them talking so intently and multitasking too?

I hear what your saying but for my customers, that's just not acceptable. "So you're telling me I have to drop my VoIP call, disconnect and reconnect to the network, and then redial my call?" Useability outweighs maximum performance by quite a wide margin.

 

[SNBAnswerGuy]

I would liken this (a single ssid) to someone that does not care to have the most performance from their network and changing to another ssid if / when they move to another area is just too bothersome for them.

Single SSID doesn't necessarily target most performance - it targets best performance, and part of that equation is user experience.

When planning out a network, many Wireless Engineers do look at the bigger picture - setting a level of, let's say, 100Mbps through the coverage area at a minimum, depending on traffic and application profiles/needs - so there's likely going to be a number of AP's out there to support that use case.

Practical use of the network is the primary target, and that use case is the strongest argument for having SingleSSID.

What I would be curious about is why the users need to be walking when on a call? To look more important and / or make sure the boss sees them talking so intently and multitasking too?

Because they do - esp. with SmartPhones - they want the same user experience with VoWiFI as they do with 2G/3G - not walking away from the desk going to a conference room for a meeting and having that call drop as the other AP has a unique SSID... fair enough?

And then - once they get to that conference room, wake up the laptop, they shouldn't have to fiddle about with Which AP/SSID should I choose?

That's in the enterprise space - it's not much different in the home space - I don't know about how others feel, but setting up a laptop/tablet/client one time for the Extended SSID is much easier than having to set up 2/4/6 unique connection profiles - I've got better things to do with my time at home.

As I noted in the article, there's always exceptions - and perhaps L&LD, you're the exception - when I look at much of the feedback here, the article is pretty much on target with the general audience.

 

[SNBAnswerGuy]

One thing some people also have an issue with is that they have WAPs located TOO far apart. So there are weak areas in their house/building. So of course a client isn't going to roam if the next closest WAP is also really weak still. One 2.4->5GHz transition issue also falls back on WAPs too far apart. Sometimes the client will roam from 5GHz->2.4GHz on the existing WAP and as you move further away it'll grab on to 2.4GHz on the nearest WAP because the 5GHz band on that WAP is still just too weak. It'll then be slow to move to 5GHz, or it'll prefer 2.4GHz on that WAP because the channel utilization is low and/or both 2.4GHz and 5GHz are showing the same MCS rates. A lot of reasons. All of my devices are pretty graceful about the roaming dance and the band preference dance. I do have one or two that generally prefer 2.4GHz almost full time, but most do a good job of switching between bands and all do a good job of switching between WAPs.

That's the other part - location is very important with planning one's wireless LAN - I tend to focus more on 2.4GHz to provide coverage across the whole house, and 5GHz where the clients generally operate.

My home office is a converted bedroom - one AP is there and provides great 2.4 and 5GHz coverage to all the bedrooms, and good coverage throughout the house - the second AP is in the general area of the living room/dining room areas, again, where people generally are - both AP's are backed up across a common Gigabit Ethernet LAN, and pervasive 2.4GHz coverage throughout the house.

In the "hot areas" I've got great performance, as both AP's are AC1900 class, and in other areas, I've got at least 216Mbps in 2.4GHz, but generally as fast as 2.4GHz can do on 20MHz channels - 72/144/216 depending on the client.

Some folks want more granular control, so there is always the unique SSID case, but I prefer usability over outright performance - I've got more to do with my time than manage many devices across multiple connection profiles and running speedtest.net/wireless benchmarks...

 

[L&LD]

Most performance is best performance. The user experience is becoming proficient with the tools they need to get that maximum.

You make it sound as if selecting the appropriate ssid is too hard for most people.

It is simply a matter of getting the work area setup properly and nobody I have taught to use 2 or more ssid's has had an issue so far. On the contrary; if they are connected to the right ssid and there is an issue, it has drastically narrowed down the possibilities of 'where' in the network infrastructure the issue is.

With people expecting VoIP over an extended distance to act like 2G/3G - again, I don't see it. When explained it is different and why, the question becomes moot.

A customer that was running a single ssid over a single router on both bands thought the network was haunted, lol...

When I explained that in his most common work area the devices he used could connect to the 2.4GHz (20MHz width) band just as easily as they could connect to the 5GHz (40MHz width) band meant that he was seeing varying performance because of the band he was connected to at the time.

He easily understood having separate ssid's would solve this long standing issue for him and was happy to be able to choose the band that gave him the performance he needed that was appropriate at that time and for that device.

Two clicks more work by the user but the user experience was enhanced dramatically.

Single SSID doesn't necessarily target most performance - it targets best performance, and part of that equation is user experience.

When planning out a network, many Wireless Engineers do look at the bigger picture - setting a level of, let's say, 100Mbps through the coverage area at a minimum, depending on traffic and application profiles/needs - so there's likely going to be a number of AP's out there to support that use case.

Practical use of the network is the primary target, and that use case is the strongest argument for having SingleSSID.



Because they do - esp. with SmartPhones - they want the same user experience with VoWiFI as they do with 2G/3G - not walking away from the desk going to a conference room for a meeting and having that call drop as the other AP has a unique SSID... fair enough?

And then - once they get to that conference room, wake up the laptop, they shouldn't have to fiddle about with Which AP/SSID should I choose?

That's in the enterprise space - it's not much different in the home space - I don't know about how others feel, but setting up a laptop/tablet/client one time for the Extended SSID is much easier than having to set up 2/4/6 unique connection profiles - I've got better things to do with my time at home.

As I noted in the article, there's always exceptions - and perhaps L&LD, you're the exception - when I look at much of the feedback here, the article is pretty much on target with the general audience.

 

[SNBAnswerGuy]

Most performance is best performance. The user experience is becoming proficient with the tools they need to get that maximum.

Actually, most users are worried about other things...

You make it sound as if selecting the appropriate ssid is too hard for most people.

Because they really shouldn't have to - don't tune for max performance in one place, tune for best performance everywhere - so set a minimum performance spec, and build the network around it.

It is simply a matter of getting the work area setup properly and nobody I have taught to use 2 or more ssid's has had an issue so far. On the contrary; if they are connected to the right ssid and there is an issue, it has drastically narrowed down the possibilities of 'where' in the network infrastructure the issue is.

That's the 'hard way', and one that invites a lot of interactive help with the 'users' on your Wireless Network - you can spend your time supporting what is in place, or spend your time doing something else.

With people expecting VoIP over an extended distance to act like 2G/3G - again, I don't see it. When explained it is different and why, the question becomes moot.

Catch up with the times - between OTT and Carrier offerings - it's becoming much more relevant - there are devices now world-wide that prefer VoWIFI over 3G when in coverage - even here in the US with Tier 1 operators.

 

[L&LD]

Sorry answerguy, but your comments do not mean much to me.

Just because you wrote an article on this very topic doesn't mean that is the only view of reality.

Actually, most users are worried about other things...



Because they really shouldn't have to - don't tune for max performance in one place, tune for best performance everywhere - so set a minimum performance spec, and build the network around it.



That's the 'hard way', and one that invites a lot of interactive help with the 'users' on your Wireless Network - you can spend your time supporting what is in place, or spend your time doing something else.



Catch up with the times - between OTT and Carrier offerings - it's becoming much more relevant - there are devices now world-wide that prefer VoWIFI over 3G when in coverage - even here in the US with Tier 1 operators.

 

[SNBAnswerGuy]

Sorry answerguy, but your comments do not mean much to me.

Just because you wrote an article on this very topic doesn't mean that is the only view of reality.

Fair enough - you are entitled to your own opinions... feel free to write a counter article.

 

[L&LD]

Fair enough - you are entitled to your own opinions... feel free to write a counter article.

I think we have.

 

[SNBAnswerGuy]

I think we have.

No - you have have not - I'll admit it's been an interesting discussion - write an article - then you'll be the target

You're a smart guy - step up and state your thoughts. I'm sure that Tim Higgins might appreciate an opposing perspective.