AX86U Check my settings please

[Tech9]

if the things one uses are working

This is correct. One of the reasons most folks don't see the bugs in firmware and report "no issues whatsoever" 15min after upgrade.

It may not be a good idea to turn off this option at 5GHz

It applies to g/a devices only. There is nothing in technology supporting change in ac/ax behavior, unless it's another bug in Asuswrt.

It's part of the 802.11ac wave 2 standard

It does more harm than good (reducing the overall performance) in a home environment with small number of moving clients around.

 

[Yota]

It applies to g/a devices only. There is nothing in technology supporting change in ac/ax behavior, unless it's another bug in Asuswrt.

I don't know exactly how this technology works because it's a Broadcom secret.

But the replies from these two make me think it makes sense that Asus enables it by default.

5 GHz also means 802.11a. Might be why it has TX bursting.

Tx Bursting was a Broadcom proprietary enhancement to 11a/11g - also known as "afterburner"

Was formalized in 11n (and later) with slightly different details... should be no harm to leave it on...

It does more harm than good (reducing the overall performance) in a home environment with small number of moving clients around.

When there is one device in the wireless network that does not support MU-MIMO, the router disables MU-MIMO, and MU-MIMO is only enabled when all wireless devices support it.

Artificially disabling it is pointless.

MU-MIMO-like technologies have long been used in cellular networks, and in fact they have been shown to help increase network throughput.

However, since many WiFi devices do not support MU-MIMO, this technology is almost useless now, and it only becomes meaningful when every WiFi device supports it.


I'm in favor of going with the default, which is to keep it enabled on 5GHz, because maybe all the devices in a user's home support the technology, and turning it off could cost them the benefit of the technology.

 

[Tech9]

But the replies from these two make me think it makes sense that Asus enables it by default.

Many default settings don't make sense. As per Asus help tip AX routers don't even support AX clients.

When there is one device in the wireless network that does not support MU-MIMO, the router disables MU-MIMO, and MU-MIMO is only enabled when all wireless devices support it.

This is incorrect and I can demonstrate MU-MIMO working with 2x MU-MIMO/Beamforming capable clients in a mixed environment with other AC/N clients. The single client performance limiting issue is stream reduction to single stream. The router indeed tries to serve the two clients at the same time, but reducing the throughput to both. When you have 20-30 wireless clients it makes no difference in overall performance when the clients are served separately at full speed or at the same time at half speed. This makes sense for multiple clients and multiple MU-MIMO capable APs. I can't see the difference in real throughput with MU-MIMO enabled/disabled on a network with 8x APs and about 180 clients. For home router - only @thiggins may register something on a specialized test equipment. You can keep it enabled or disabled safely, but it won't do what the advertisements say.

 

[Yota]

Many 2.4GHz default settings don't make sense. As per Asus help tip AX routers don't even support AX clients.

Yes, many 2.4GHz setups are marketing gimmicks, moving 5GHz options to 2.4GHz and expecting 2.4GHz clients to support them.

This is incorrect and I can demonstrate MU-MIMO working with 2x MU-MIMO/Beamforming clients in a mixed environment with other AC/N clients. The single client performance limiting issue is stream reduction to single stream. The router indeed tries to serve the two clients at the same time, but reducing the throughput to both. When you have 20-30 wireless clients it makes no difference in overall performance when the clients are served separately at full speed or at the same time at half speed. This makes sense for multiple clients and multiple MU-MIMO capable APs. I can't see the difference in real throughput with MU-MIMO enabled/disabled on a network with 8x APs and about 180 clients. For home router - only @thiggins may register something on a specialized test equipment. You can keep it enabled or disabled safely, but it won't do what the advertisements say.

Well, you're right, I think this feature is hard to use outside of the lab, since Apple devices are the deal breakers here, having Apple devices in any network is bound to cause MU-MIMO enabled networks to affect other client performance .

 

[Tech9]

I can demonstrate MU-MIMO working with Apple devices present as well. They just don't support MU-MIMO because Apple figured out there is no much benefit from it. Apple devices don't support anything not improving the user experience. Working MU-MIMO is different than having any benefits from it though. Disabling MU-MIMO will prevent some of the devices switching to single stream for no reason. Any router from AC86U above (BCM4366E) can rotate 20-30 clients with the same aggregate throughput regardless of MU-MIMO enabled or disabled. You can observe MU-MIMO working with 2x Samsung Galaxy phones. When disabled they keep 2-stream connection. When enabled they switch to 1-stream. The real world use data transfer to both will be completed for the same time. Now add to equation MU-MIMO works to few clients only due to limited number of streams available.

 

[sfx2000]

Well, you're right, I think this feature is hard to use outside of the lab, since Apple devices are the deal breakers here, having Apple devices in any network is bound to cause MU-MIMO enabled networks to affect other client performance .

Apple doesn't support MU-MIMO, but there's no impact to the rest of the network, so I would not call it a "problem".

There are some early Broadcom Wave 2 clients that have issues with MU-MIMO, where a dual-stream client will go to single stream in the presence of a MU-enabled AP, but that was a few years back.

MU is extremely selective - conditions have to be "just right" for it to even be attempted by the AP - and there, it can be done on the lab bench, but in general layouts, it's almost impossible to do.

There's no harm in keeping it on, no harm in disabling it.

In a mixed AC/AX network, keep in mind that the lowest common scheme will determine the MU frames...

In 6E - I would leave it enabled... lot less overhead there compared to WiFi 5/6

 

[sfx2000]

This is incorrect and I can demonstrate MU-MIMO working with 2x MU-MIMO/Beamforming capable clients in a mixed environment with other AC/N clients.

How do you "know" that the MU is actually in use - the only way to do this is to capture the frames at the AP, and there's no commercial firmware that can do that.

 

[Tech9]

conditions have to be "just right" for it to even be attempted by the AP

This can be demonstrated with no special equipment. MU-MIMO needs Beamforming. Beamforming works with stationary clients. The same 2x phones with MU-MIMO/Beamforming support may work in MU-MIMO when stationary, but switch quickly the places of the phones and MU-MIMO is out.

How do you "know" that the MU is actually in use

I don't. I can only assume it attempts working by observing the phones switching from 2-stream to 1-stream right after turning MU-MIMO on. When turned off the phones keep the 2-stream connection all the time. It's trying to do something, but with no easily observable throughput benefits.

 

[Yota]

Apple doesn't support MU-MIMO, but there's no impact to the rest of the network, so I would not call it a "problem".

No, this has an effect.

Suppose a 4-antenna MU-MIMO router is connected to 3 clients, 2 of which are dual-antenna Samsung mobile phones that support MU-MIMO, and the other is an Apple device that does not support MU-MIMO.

MU-MIMO is disabled by the AP, guess why because Apple device break that.


I once read somewhere that joining a MU-MIMO-enabled network with any device that doesn't support MU-MIMO will cause that network to disable MU-MIMO.

So I'm not complaining about Apple, but they are the biggest company that doesn't support MU-MIMO, and because of their practice, MU-MIMO is ignored, and even recommended to disable it here.

 

[Tech9]

The 2x Samsung phones will eventually use 1-stream and 1x Apple device will use 2-stream. This is exactly what happens. When you disable MU-MIMO all 3x devices will use 2-stream. If you start moving around the 3x devices none will be using MU-MIMO regardless of enabled/disabled in settings. My recommendation above is related to no real benefit on a home network and prevents devices from switching to 1-stream. Some may say they have >100 devices on their networks, but only 5GHz active devices play the MU-MIMO game - on most home networks under 10 with up to 3 players allowed. My general recommendation is - do not enable in settings things you don't need. MU-MIMO is one of them.

I have also tested the settings above on AX86U and they work very well to multiple different type clients including quirky IoT devices on 2.4GHz band.

 

[sfx2000]

This can be demonstrated with no special equipment. MU-MIMO needs Beamforming. Beamforming works with stationary clients. The same 2x phones with MU-MIMO/Beamforming support may work in MU-MIMO when stationary, but switch quickly the places of the phones and MU-MIMO is out.

That is not how it works... to determine if MU is actually used, you have to capture the frames at the AP, it's the only way...

As I mentioned earlier, there were some early Wave2 clients that went single stream when MU was enabled, but single stream doesn't mean MU is actually used...

One little hint though - If you see a broadcast sounding request, that means that AP is at least checking to see if MU is even possible...

SU-MIMO - the sounding request is directed towards a single client.

 

[Tech9]

That is not how it works...

I know. This is only real life behavior observation on a home router. My better observation is multi-APs to all the same clients - 8x Cisco APs AC Wave 2 to 80-120 Chromebooks with MU-MIMO support claims for both APs and clients. Again, no measurable aggregate throughput gains with MU-MIMO enabled/disabled. I don't have special test equipment and can only measure the final result. And in this case I can't measure any differences.

 

[keefrto]

Great discussion on this forum, learned lots for sure. I will try based on my current set up @tech suggestions at the top and see how things settle. I am not currently using Merlin only Asus firmware.

 

[Tech9]

I am not currently using Merlin only Asus firmware.

Both have the same settings available. If you have Wi-Fi issues - try the test firmware posted in 22068 release thread.

Release - ASUS RT-AX86 Series(RT-AX86U/RT-AX86S) Firmware version 3.0.0.4.388.22068

Regardless of the router IP they should use the URL of: http://www.asusrouter.com

www.snbforums.com

 

[keefrto]

Both have the same settings available. If you have Wi-Fi issues - try the test firmware posted in 22068 release thread.

Release - ASUS RT-AX86 Series(RT-AX86U/RT-AX86S) Firmware version 3.0.0.4.388.22068

Regardless of the router IP they should use the URL of: http://www.asusrouter.com

www.snbforums.com

Hi thanks for this. i will take a look

 

[keefrto]

I disabled the wifi 6 part as suggested as none of my devices except the cell phones detect / use (is this the correct meaning) it. I have one rt ax 86u as main router on bridge mode. Its esrly but i dont see any obvious effect right now with it off or on.

 

[Tech9]

There is nothing much to see between AC and AX on a cell phone/tablet anyway. You can run a speedtest and enjoy the slight difference in numbers, but only closer to the router. AX with 1024-QAM needs -65dBm or better signal level. Otherwise you can't even enjoy the numbers.

 

[keefrto]

24-hour update, I am really pleased I found this thread as I have not had a drop in signal strength or disconnection in any of my devices. Solid speeds for sure, thanks OP and @Tech9

 

[Ac3200user]

In normal Wi-Fi environment with other networks around and IoT devices for maximun stability and compatibility I would set this router this way:

Although an old post, these settings helped me a lot!!! Thanks.

Wifi speed improved from a max of 300mb to 650mb.

Thanks again. Should be a sticky post!

 

[Tech9]

Although an old post, these settings helped me a lot!!!

Nothing much changed. This is mostly fail-safe and best compatibility settings.