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Does Auto Channel ever change the channel?

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You can see 'Radar detected' and/or 'wl_chanspec_changed_action' logs and your router should switch to another channel.
But if DFS bands are really totally empties, it's not a good sign... you can expect less competition there, but a No Man's Land is a warning, maybe other routers already leave these bands in your location because of DFS event :/ Good idea to try it before work hours ^^
 
Thanks for showing me what to look for, @Mikiya. No "Radar detected" during the overnight hours so far, but one instance of the latter concurrent with the event following it:

Jan 7 21:28:24 cfg_server: event: wl_chanspec_changed_action
Jan 7 21:28:24 cfg_server: skip event due no re

Actually, our closest neighbor's network seems to dabble into the DFS spectrum intermittently, but otherwise yes, it's pretty much a desert. I'll be interested to see what the logs show tonight.
 
Wow. Lots of good information. I don't know anything about inssider so can't comment on it, but what you say makes sense.

Thanks for explaining why I shouldn't expect to see radar when I do a Site Survey with the router. The biggest reason I'm hesitant to try the DFS channels is the potential downside if we get knocked off during a VOIP call, in the middle of a remote meeting, or heaven forbid, while my wife is teaching a class online (instant death :eek:). But man, it's tempting when I see my poor SSID competing with all those other networks on either side of that nice, blank DFS canvas.

I'm intrigued, so I set my bandwidth to 80 MHz and enabled DFS channels and will see what happens tomorrow, before the work week starts. What would I search for in my router's log to see if it detected radar, and what it did in response?

I've never had a VOIP call over wireless drop nor a laptop drop a connection when my router changes channels. If this is happening it's a client driver issue.
 
Wow. Lots of good information. I don't know anything about inssider so can't comment on it, but what you say makes sense.

Thanks for explaining why I shouldn't expect to see radar when I do a Site Survey with the router. The biggest reason I'm hesitant to try the DFS channels is the potential downside if we get knocked off during a VOIP call, in the middle of a remote meeting, or heaven forbid, while my wife is teaching a class online (instant death :eek:). But man, it's tempting when I see my poor SSID competing with all those other networks on either side of that nice, blank DFS canvas.

I'm intrigued, so I set my bandwidth to 80 MHz and enabled DFS channels and will see what happens tomorrow, before the work week starts. What would I search for in my router's log to see if it detected radar, and what it did in response?

Even if you use a fixed channel and are on DFS and radar is detected the router will immediately change channels. Setting a channel with DFS enabled is a suggestion.
 
I've never had a VOIP call over wireless drop nor a laptop drop a connection when my router changes channels. If this is happening it's a client driver issue.

I apologize for my vague statement. I've never seen either of these situations using non-DFS channels either, which makes sense now that I understand that my router doesn't switch channels on its own. I was thinking it might happen if I was on a DFS channel that was forced to switch and now understand that it won't. Knowing that makes a huge difference to me; thanks.

Even if you use a fixed channel and are on DFS and radar is detected the router will immediately change channels. Setting a channel with DFS enabled is a suggestion.

Do Asus routers switch to a non-DFS channel when radar is detected? I'm assuming so, since I've read that the router must scan for at least a minute in the US before using a DFS channel.

With my confidence bolstered by your and @drinkingbird 's advice and correcting my mistaken ideas, I've decided to go a step further. Along with enabling DFS channels I've also enabled the 160 MHz bandwidth, and will allow the router to choose the bandwidth by setting 20/40/80/160 MHz Auto. I'll be home tomorrow to monitor the situation and can revert to my more conservative settings should something go far wrong and will report back with the results. Thanks again for your advice.
 
As mentioned (8 years) earlier in this thread the router may change channel on it's own when set to Auto. I've seen this happen quite a lot on the 2.4GHz band but very rarely on the 5GHz band (YMMV). The quality of the current channels has to degrade by a very large extent for it to change. When it does you might see something like this in the log:
Code:
Jul 24 11:13:14 acsd: eth7: NONACSD channel switching to channel spec: 0xe02a (36/80)
acsd has changed a lot over the years so the exact message might be different or not be present at all.

Changes forced by radar detection are a completely separate process and can happen regardless of whether the channel is set to Auto or not.
 
I apologize for my vague statement. I've never seen either of these situations using non-DFS channels either, which makes sense now that I understand that my router doesn't switch channels on its own. I was thinking it might happen if I was on a DFS channel that was forced to switch and now understand that it won't. Knowing that makes a huge difference to me; thanks.



Do Asus routers switch to a non-DFS channel when radar is detected? I'm assuming so, since I've read that the router must scan for at least a minute in the US before using a DFS channel.

With my confidence bolstered by your and @drinkingbird 's advice and correcting my mistaken ideas, I've decided to go a step further. Along with enabling DFS channels I've also enabled the 160 MHz bandwidth, and will allow the router to choose the bandwidth by setting 20/40/80/160 MHz Auto. I'll be home tomorrow to monitor the situation and can revert to my more conservative settings should something go far wrong and will report back with the results. Thanks again for your advice.

You can try 160 but knowing you have radar in your area it is very likely it will never get used or will get bumped down to 80 very quickly. 160mhz has to use DFS (except some routers and clients that support 80+80 mode but I don't believe Asus does). You can try it but it may be more unstable than what you have now.

This is a good view of what you're dealing with. Ignore the footnote about 132-144 not being available in US - they are now, but only 802.11ac or X devices will list them typically since they are newer.

1673225326793.png
 
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You can try 160 but knowing you have radar in your area it is very likely it will never get used or will get bumped down to 80 very quickly. 160mhz has to use DFS (except some routers and clients that support 80+80 mode but I don't believe Asus does). You can try it but it may be more unstable than what you have now.

I can certainly see that happening. I'd never have thought to turn on DFS before, and now that I have I figure I might as well "go big, or go home," especially while I'm here to watch over it. The chances of being pleasantly surprised are small, but we'll see.

I do like that last chart. It's clear and without a lot of text I've seen on some others.
 
I can certainly see that happening. I'd never have thought to turn on DFS before, and now that I have I figure I might as well "go big, or go home," especially while I'm here to watch over it. The chances of being pleasantly surprised are small, but we'll see.

I do like that last chart. It's clear and without a lot of text I've seen on some others.

I wish it was going to get better with 6ghz but they are still going to have low power indoor, AFC (new version of DFS) etc. But at least it has 1200mhz of bandwidth and no radar overlap as of yet. Since it will have even more trouble penetrating buildings and has more spectrum, hopefully everyone will have enough to get a good clean signal, but we thought that about 5ghz too.
 
I wish it was going to get better with 6ghz but they are still going to have low power indoor, AFC (new version of DFS) etc. But at least it has 1200mhz of bandwidth and no radar overlap as of yet. Since it will have even more trouble penetrating buildings and has more spectrum, hopefully everyone will have enough to get a good clean signal, but we thought that about 5ghz too.

I'm an average joe but have worked with some radio engineers, and I get the concept of higher frequency = lower penetration. It was fascinating to learn that even rain could interfere with outdoor radio signals if the rain was falling at a similar frequency.
 
I'm an average joe but have worked with some radio engineers, and I get the concept of higher frequency = lower penetration. It was fascinating to learn that even rain could interfere with outdoor radio signals if the rain was falling at a similar frequency.

Even fog is awful for higher frequency RF like microwave. On the other hand lower frequency RF on a cloudy day can reach further than a clear day since it bounces off the clouds (ask any old school ham radio operator). Its a fascinating space to work in.

There are now (well have been for years) microwave links from NYC to Chicago, London to Frankfurt, and even top secret R&D for one across the Atlantic between NYC and London for low latency stock trading. They come with a whopping 80% uptime guarantee and enough fine print to effectively make it 0%, but the big firms pay millions a year for a relatively small amount of bandwidth on it. I'm not sure what frequency they're running, but given each span is between 25 and 50 miles, probably up close to 30ghz. If any one span is affected (there's between 25 and 35 spans depending which provider), the whole link goes down and they switch to fiber backup. Each dropped packet on a clear day is likely a bird that flew through the path, and given how high the power levels are, if it flew too close to the dish, it probably became lunch for some ground predator.

A lot of people don't realize that light in fiber is actually significantly slower than the speed of light since there is no such thing as 100% optically perfect glass, and fiber optics rely on bouncing light which makes the actual distance the light travels much longer than the cable itself. RF comes much closer to speed of light (though it varies with frequency and how dense the air is). For example the best fiber path NYC to Chicago is about 7.5msec one way (and they had to trench under the great lakes to get that), and the best microwave link is about 5ms. That translates to potentially billions of dollars in profit for a trading firm.

In the case of wifi, on one hand higher frequency is better, will stay in your own house better (and your neighbors houses) so less interference for everyone. Less prone to interference from stuff like microwaves and cordless devices, higher bandwidth, etc. May need more APs within your home due to reduced range through walls, but since you'll have plenty of channels to choose from, shouldn't be an issue. Hopefully one of the "seamless roaming" standards will be commonplace in the near future and it will be a great experience.

On the other hand, higher frequency = more potential health risks. I know it is considered a conspiracy theory but there is plenty of peer reviewed scientific research showing the effects of RF on human cells, and the mutations that can lead to cancer. I'm glad that Verizon selected sites quite far from my house for their MMwave antennas in my town. But only a matter of time before they're on every pole.

If a microwave running at about 2.5ghz can cook food from the inside at a couple hundred watts (that would be a small microwave, but still gets the job done), then 0.1 watts 24x7x365 just takes longer to cook us.

The big wireless companies did a great job of discrediting those studies a couple decades ago and their contributions to campaigns helps keep them buried.

Free space optics was actually extremely promising (about as close as you can get to actual speed of light outside of a vacuum) but it is so sensitive to anything other than a crystal clear line of site, it just isn't practical. At 1 mile even just high humidity can cause enough refraction to drop the connection. They continue to experiment with it using different wavelengths over long distances, and it is in use on short intra-city connections from building to building. It is actually most useful in outer space, very small amount of power can transmit data very long distances at very high data rates. So 2 objects in the same stable orbit could benefit quite a lot from it. Or even one object in stable orbit like the space station communicating with a static base on Mars etc. Put in some really accurate computer adjusted motors, then one or both objects no longer need to be stable.

I ran a pilot of it between two buildings in Boston. Very cool technology but every time the big screen we had monitoring it showed a dropped packet someone would yell out "bird!".

/Tangent
 
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And a fascinating one at that. "Potentially billions of dollars in profit for a trading firm" from a 2.5 ms difference between a fiber optic link and the best microwave link? That's some pretty high stakes riding on the technology working properly.

Here in Hawaii, I've been told of hikers who decided to recline on a rooftop-mounted microwave dish after trespassing and climbing into a remote repeater site. I'm told the results aren't pretty. Regarding the potential health risks of higher frequency non-ionizing radiation, I recall one of the radio engineer refused to be in the same room with an operating microwave oven. I respected him enough to realize he had pretty good reasons, and I suppose the warmth I feel when walking past our own microwave's glass is proof enough that not all that radiation is being contained.

Light bouncing around in a fiber optic cable and the concept of free space optics are beyond me, but you're right, the whole field of RF is pretty interesting stuff.
 
And a fascinating one at that. "Potentially billions of dollars in profit for a trading firm" from a 2.5 ms difference between a fiber optic link and the best microwave link? That's some pretty high stakes riding on the technology working properly.

Here in Hawaii, I've been told of hikers who decided to recline on a rooftop-mounted microwave dish after trespassing and climbing into a remote repeater site. I'm told the results aren't pretty. Regarding the potential health risks of higher frequency non-ionizing radiation, I recall one of the radio engineer refused to be in the same room with an operating microwave oven. I respected him enough to realize he had pretty good reasons, and I suppose the warmth I feel when walking past our own microwave's glass is proof enough that not all that radiation is being contained.

Light bouncing around in a fiber optic cable and the concept of free space optics are beyond me, but you're right, the whole field of RF is pretty interesting stuff.

We have customers who will pay extra to move servers over 2 rows closer to the switch to gain a few nanoseconds. 10 years ago it was microseconds. Soon it will be picoseconds.

Cisco now has a switch that can forward packets through in about 1/8 of a microsecond (125ns). The high frequency trading business is a whole other ballgame.

Ironically one of my former coworkers who was front and center of this low latency competition is now the co-founder of a stock exchange that uses spools of excess fiber to ensure every firm gets the exact same latency, level playing field. Some other exchanges have followed suit but the big ones (NYSE/ICE, Nasdaq, etc) make way too much money off colocation and low latency networks to ever consider that.

There are stories of WWII soldiers in Iceland and other colder climates huddling around the microwave transmitters for heat and not realizing, the heat was not radiating, it was being created inside of them. The fate was not good.

Again, some of these stories have probably been exaggerated or may not be true at all, but generally, when possible, a good rule of thumb is stay away from high frequency RF radiation whenever possible.

But your friend is smart. Modern microwaves are made to be cheap, the RF leakage is pretty bad. Probably when walking by it what you're feeling is just the heat off the magnetron that the fan is exhausting, but there is definitely some high power RF making its way out. Probably not a good idea to stare into the door waiting for the timer to expire.

Then again, with 15ghz satellite from above, 5ghz wifi (soon to be 6), mid and high band cellular all over (and in our pockets), at some point you just have to accept that unless you want to wrap your house in chicken wire or tinfoil and cut off all communications, it's just a fact of life. You can worry about cancer all day and end up getting hit by a meteor.
 
There are stories of WWII soldiers in Iceland and other colder climates huddling around the microwave transmitters for heat and not realizing, the heat was not radiating, it was being created inside of them. The fate was not good.

That's truly sad.

Then again, with 15ghz satellite from above, 5ghz wifi (soon to be 6), mid and high band cellular all over (and in our pockets), at some point you just have to accept that unless you want to wrap your house in chicken wire or tinfoil and cut off all communications, it's just a fact of life. You can worry about cancer all day and end up getting hit by a meteor.

We all seek our own comfort point, I suppose. My family use Bluetooth earbuds all the time, while I prefer not to have a small transmitter/receiver so close to my head for hours on end. Yet I allow my phone to connect to my car's Bluetooth for the convenience and relative safety while driving. Maybe I should consider driving with a tinfoil hat. Got any designs you can suggest?
 
Time for some updates. In summary, everything is working well at the moment.

Last night I changed the bandwidth from 20/40/80/160 Auto to 80 MHz as web pages were responding slowly on our wirelessly networked computers. When I went to bed, the 5 GHz channel was set to 108.

When I awoke today our 5 GHz band had switched to non-DFS Channel 40 and sure enough, there is a "Radar detected" event in the log. Channel 40 has the most competing neighboring networks but web pages were still loading snappily, so I fired up Site Survey which has been temperamental but was working today. Channel Capacity is ~90 - 95% and Interference <5% in each of the 20, 40, and 80 MHz bandwidths. My wife is presently teaching her online class on a wirelessly networked laptop with no apparent glitches, despite networks with hidden SSIDs popping in and out and a normal amount of air traffic.

Before posting my first message to this thread, the biggest change I had made was to enable 802.11ax/ac Beamforming. Could that alone have made such a huge difference?
 
I apologize for my vague statement. I've never seen either of these situations using non-DFS channels either, which makes sense now that I understand that my router doesn't switch channels on its own. I was thinking it might happen if I was on a DFS channel that was forced to switch and now understand that it won't. Knowing that makes a huge difference to me; thanks.



Do Asus routers switch to a non-DFS channel when radar is detected? I'm assuming so, since I've read that the router must scan for at least a minute in the US before using a DFS channel.

With my confidence bolstered by your and @drinkingbird 's advice and correcting my mistaken ideas, I've decided to go a step further. Along with enabling DFS channels I've also enabled the 160 MHz bandwidth, and will allow the router to choose the bandwidth by setting 20/40/80/160 MHz Auto. I'll be home tomorrow to monitor the situation and can revert to my more conservative settings should something go far wrong and will report back with the results. Thanks again for your advice.

I used to do what you are about to try. It was an adventure and I eventual stopped. More frustration than the tiny bit of additional throughput is worth. Here is a list of things that I discovered:
- Just because 160 is twice 80 dose not mean you get double the throughput, you may only get 10 to 20 percent more
- If the router chooses channel 36 to go 180 wide and it hears radar it may simply go 80 wide.
- When the router hears radar, it can not change to any DFS channel without first listening for 5 minutes before transmitting. To avoid no 5-GHZ for 5 minutes, the router will go 80 wide on a random channel. Then it will listen to the traffic level on that channel and may change again. Not an issue till your neighbor's router also using auto channel changes and channel and others also get involved. Eventually all the routers settle.
- Not only is your router not allowed to transmit on a DFS channel if it hears radar, you client must also respect the 5 minute quiet rule. If your router is in the middle of your home and thus dose not hear radar, a client may. This happened to me with a laptop with an Intel card. Since the client can not tell the router to change channels it had no choice but to change to 2.4 Ghz and those channels are crowded and busy where I live. Slow...

This is why I avoid DFS and also 160 wide and have been happy ever after
 

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