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Draytek routers

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To review or not to review

Thanks for this insight into your reviewing ideas and policies. I have read it twice, but I find your arguments unconvincing to say the least. This is probably my own shortcoming; I'll put it down to cultural differences (I'm European and have somewhat different ideas about what an independent reviewing site should be about).

You did, however, succeed in warning me that your set of reviews does not necessarily cover the best that is out there.

And it's still a good site.

Regards,

Oscar.
 
I should emphasize that I have absolutely no input into SNB's review policy--I'm basically the forums janitor. However, from being in the PC enthusiast community for over a decade, it's not difficult to rationalize a site's perspective.

I'm not certain by what you mean by "independent." Given a site with unlimited resources and staff, it would be possible to purchase and review every product out there. You won't find such a site, especially for a niche interest. Cnet is a much larger site, and they can barely manage more than two paragraphs per product. Does accepting units from vendors preclude a site from being independent? If so, truly independent sites are few and far between. I take "independent" to mean "objective," meaning an impartial, unbiased review of products. Although vendors would love a favorable review, (integrity aside) the community frowns on these things, and a site without readers is of little use to vendors--ultimately the site loses.

The overall takeaway message is that Draytek not sending units for review by US sites (even for temporary loan) is more the cause of lack of coverage than a conspiracy by D-Link/Linksys to shut the little guys out. I'm tempted to pseudonymously contact Draytek to ask why they don't engage US sites, but I think it should be done by someone with a legitimate interest in the product. Volunteers?
 
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Well then the message from SMB is that they wont review these products. Fair enought but personally I can say that am still more interested in reading review of products such as a Draytek or a Buffalo or a Fritzbox. And those are generally still missing here.

In contrast, I pretty much ingore each review these days that I see here on the D-LinkCiscoSys 310.5N or whatever. At some point one really has no more attention span to devote to what is obviously a steady steam of products designed for 5 mins so that you can buy another one 5 mins later.

Maybe those are the ones products that turn up in your mailbox for free, but as even your own reviews underline, they are generally worth very little to me as a consumer.
 
I did a bit of a test recently, a Draytek 2910, vs a Linksys RV042.
The DrayTek is a newer router, not an apples to apples comparison -- but the Linksys is recommeded a lot around here.

Hardware:
Linksys
I have no clue what the Draytek has inside.

Test: uTorrent 1.8.3, CentOS 5.3 CDs 1-6, DVD both the i386 and the x86_64.

uTorrent set to accept 1000 connections per torrent, globally 5000 connections max.

Connections: 6Mbps/768Kbps aDSL, 20Mbps/2Mbps Biz Cable.

I used AnalogX to measure local network card input/output to get an idea of what was coming to the computer. Both managed to max out the connections (as far as I could tell, total down was about 24Mbps and up was about 1.5Mbps fairly stable on each.)

Using: netstat -n |find /I /C "63438" to determine local connections (to the computer)

The linksys averaged 800 connections max, but could not sustain this (would lock up or restart if pushed harder)

The Draytek managed to keep up with out much of a sweat (was showing ~40%-~60% cpu and almost 80% memory usage.) It didn't lock up or restart. Max was around 3000 connections, and pretty steady at 2000 connections.

When testing with the draytek, the comptuer started to lag behind (disk I/O saturation and high CPU load.)


Cost comparison:
Draytek 2910: $171 + S&H

Linksys RV042: $160 + S&H

About the same price and features, but completely different results. The RV042 I have was pulled from service because it would intermittently lock up and need a power cycle. Linksys support was of no help other than update firmware which never really solved the issue. I can't give my boss the excuse "well, they are trying to fix it." Just doesn't cut it. I fixed the problem, got rid of the issue...

NOW, I will say I did have an issue with a 2950. There was a weird fluke where the updated firmware was not compatible with settings that have been in service. This one time, I had to load settings from scratch (but I'm uber diligent about documenting every screen and every setting) so that only took about an hour to get set back up. I'm not sure if draytek put the effort into figuring it out because what had happened is all of my NAT tables that were tied to specific ports were all set to WAN1, and would not stay set to WAN2 where necessary. This caused the hardware watchdog to reset the router because it was locked up. Unplugging WAN1 made the issue seem to go away (and the strange thing is that NAT still functioned as it was supposed to.) I reset to factory (with the latest firmware image) reloaded the settings and was good to go.

I guess what I'm trying to say is --- because its main stream, and people don't report issues doesn't mean they don't exist. My mom for example, as a Linksys Vonage router. She's used to the fact that it requires a restart every few days because the phone will stop working or the internet connection will also. What does Vonage do about this? They replace the router every several months. I can say that 100% of the routers they've sent (all linksys, different models) have had issues. She's just gotten used to the "I have to reset or I don't get calls" which I think has become common with the masses and mainstream -- its not until those of us who know better don't put up with that and vote with our wallets.
 
Steve (Draytek), I'd love for you to send a few Draytek products to Tim for review. If you read a few of Tim's reviews, you'll see he calls it like it is, regardless of the brand. As reviewers go, he's about as unbiased as you'll find anywhere, and if a product does not live up to its claims, Tim is one of the first to call attention to it. As for damage control on your first post here...that's all you :)

I wanted to purchase a Draytek Dual WAN router and simply found it hard to find in North America...so I've got a Netgear (which I've got mixed feelings about after spending several days working through bugs). Reading what I've read about Draytek, it seems your customers like your products and my sense too (after about 15 years at this) is that the products are good. Why? Because when folks have issues, they're vocal...and when all is good, they're relatively quiet. All that's missing is a few reviews on credible sites like this one to get a few more retailers interested in the US/Canada.

Another constructive critique...your downloadable documentation (user manual) on the dual wan SSL routers doesn't mention SSL VPN configuration! I found it in the FAQ sections.

Cheers,
 
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I wanted to purchase a Draytek Dual WAN router and simply found it hard to find in North America.,
How hard could it be. I myself found it by doing what i do with any manufacturer - go thir website and look for the section that says where you can buy their product.

That took me to 2 retailers one of which I used and found good: www.guideband.com

I mean you werent expecting to find this thing at bestBuy or something, were you? As a consumer its pretty clear how the US electronics market works: the prices are good, but the flipside is that they make up for low margins by cultivating a culture of "disposable" products, so we keep buying and buying. However, a router that just plain works, isnt focused on sexy flavour of the month etc....well that just really has no role in that value chain.

I find the same with audio equipment too. If you just want plain old long term type of quality, not brand flavour of the month, then you'll need to look online or to small specialist retailers. You cant look in the regular channels. They arent interested in those type of "old school" products.
 
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Touché then :) I did find (and purchased) the Draytek product as described here: http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=2384

No, they're not hard to find, but there are no resellers listed in Canada, and you need to figure out www.draytek.us to find a reseller in the US. My sense so far of the Draytek products, particularly after reading their slick glossy product catalog, was that this company is in definite need of at least one person who speaks proper English. The products are obviously enterprise class, but the supporting material is well, distracting, to say the least. Having poked around in the Draytek 2950G firmware for an hour or so, the product is obviously very well designed and the feature set is well beyond what I'm seeing on the Netgear FVS336G. Draytek could have a much larger customer base in this sector than it does now, by just sending products out for review. It certainly worked for QNAP.

Cinevate bases its success on solid customer relationships via social media, web forums, as well as email newsletters coupled to magazine campaigns....and aside from a few resellers, is 100% internet sales based. We also maintain a worldwide network of sponsored cinematographers who help promote our products. Hopefully that puts my comments into perspective :) As the owner of the company, I don't really have time to post here at all. However, having spent 10 years as a systems analyst for the Canadian government, and running my own company before that for 4 years...I suppose I remain a tech geek at heart ;-) Filmmakers/Photographers likely have the the largest data requirements of most. Case in point, I'm trying to figure out the best way to do a 50TB array for a busy studio (of just five shooters) in Toronto. Folks like these don't have time to mess around with buggy product, and if a company comes in solid at Draytek's price point, then potential is probably very large in this sector.
 
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Well put... I've posted this a few times but I just bought a Draytek 2950g mainly due to what I had read on this site and others.

My overall take is that Draytek has a very solid product, their marketing could be improved to get more (north american at least) exposure and the documentation does have it's quirks and bad translations.

Given this however... I just swapped out a Netgear FVS336G which was turdtastic as far as I'm concerned and you know what? The Draytek just works.... period. I'm still configuring it in a live production environment and it's been solid.

So my take is... lets toss the politics, set egos aside and let the products do the talking for themselves.

And I will ask... Draytek... why aren't you sending review units?

I'll do us all a favour and forward this thread to them.
 
Draytek has reached out and the first review is coming. We're starting with a 2910G. 2950 will come later.
 
Looking forward to the review!

I did forward this thread to Draytek so perhaps it was from that or the US side (Steve I think??).... either way I'll be interested to see how it stacks up.
 
Draytek Reseller in Canada

We're an authorized Draytek Reseller located in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada. We actually specialize in Cloud Computing applications but found installing Draytek routers with dual internet lines makes a massive improvement in the performance of our customer's web applications. Well, and we have a deep understanding of router technology anyway.

Cheers,
Blair Collins
http://draytek.interlockit.com
http://www.interlockit.com

Touché then :) I did find (and purchased) the Draytek product as described here: http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=2384

No, they're not hard to find, but there are no resellers listed in Canada, and you need to figure out www.draytek.us to find a reseller in the US...
 
We actually specialize in Cloud Computing applications but found installing Draytek routers with dual internet lines makes a massive improvement in the performance of our customer's web applications.
Really? I'd love to have you write an article about that.
 
Well, I guess our next router will be a more local purchase then :)

Other than one "failure" (fixed with a reset and restore) I've been very happy with the Draytek 2950 we're using. It's been quite some time that I've reported in here on the product, but here's are the standout features that I'd be loath to give up, as well as a complaint or two.

1. Smartmonitor! Once users appreciate that web traffic etc. is monitored, and a few filters added...abuse virtually disappears. It really does give you complete reporting in terms of anything happening via the WAN connections.

2. Load balancing in our situation really doesn't work effectively. Most web apps, interfaces etc. don't like IP address changes mid-flight, which means for most users, load balancing rules are required. That said, after many months of tweaking, we've managed to arrive at a set of rules that take advantage of both WAN connection advantages. For redundancy, we use two different ISPs which means asymetric upload/download, something we've used to tune performance depending on traffic.

3. The bandwidth reporting functions in the router admin interface make tuning (see above) very clinical.

4. VPN. In particular using SHREW with XP, Vista 64 or Windows7 64 performance has been excellent. The fact that a VPN profile works with iPhone is very handy, particularly when travelling. Both VOIP and RDP work extremely well on the iPhone 3Gs when connected to the Draytek via the iPhone VPN function.

My only complaint really is that with regard to QOS, the router can't do layer 3, as apparently this would require faster hardware. Skype in particular seems to be a slippery application to tune in terms of QOS for this and a few other reasons. You can priorize traffic from IP addresses, but this is akin to pigeon hunting wtih a cannon.

One thing that I would throw in here based on observations of the Netgear FVS336G and Draytek 2950 Dual WAN routers that I've personally tested. Throwing a dual WAN router in to a system is not a magic bullet by any stretch, although sometimes the marketing hype would suggest this. Once installing one, (and you should buy two if you really want redundance!) expect to spend a few weeks, (then regularly checking), logs/graphs etc. and talking to your users until you get it right. By "right" I mean tweaking load balance rules (and their order) to maximize performance for both users and network devices. Draytek's admin interface does work quite well in terms of stacking the load balance rules for both WAN interfaces. By no means did it happen automatically though! In our case, ISP1 has twice the upstream bandwith of ISP2, however, however ISP2 has 5 times better downstream bandwidth! This means that the interface connected to WAN1 and WAN2 is important as it relates to your rule sets. WAN1 in an auto load balancing session will take all traffic until it's maxed, then the router sends traffic to WAN2. This is fine, but you may want all your web traffic to go to WAN2..and guess what, this might not work either as just sending port 80 traffic to WAN2 will do wierd things...like make iPhone app updates impossible via itunes. Why? iTunes needs more than port 80 to work and it will reject multiple IPs associated with different ports (which would happen if say 443 is going to WAN1 and port 80 to WAN2). Another stinker relates to client sessions maintained by web servers...they will drop a session typically from a client if a new IP shows up...typical of load balancing. The point of all this is that tuning network performance will take some time, and you'll be scratching your head a few times along the way.

Blair, your blog makes for some interesting reading :) http://blog.interlockit.com/

Cheers,
 
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Thanks for the kind words about my blog. I like your corporate website. Not many companies in your line of business from Thunder day I expect? :)

Thanks for pointing out Smartmonitor. It's awesome! I had only used the Draytek Syslog utility (which is also excellent) for diagnostic purposes previously.

This page on draytek.com seems to have newer versions of the utilities: http://www.draytek.com/user/SupportDLUtility.php

I haven't seen the load balancing changing ip issue with sites like iTunes but that makes a lot of sense if you use port based rules.

We have auto load balancing "According to Line Speed" turned on at our own office and 2 customer sites. We also used destination IP address ranges for load balancing mainly because this was easier than trying to figure out all the dynamic port ranges for our callcentric voip service. Maybe IP address based rules avoid the problem your having? We have 3 sites running load balancing with similar differentials in line speeds to yours and we really haven't tweaked the load balancing much beyond voip services. As you already know it's important to do throughput testing to get the real line speeds for the router load balancing config.

Another trick is that we use Google public DNS 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 which avoids problems with differing DNS results from different ISP's. It also gets rid of Roger's annoying redirect of incorrect URL's to their own landing/search page.
 
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Hi Tim,

I'd be rather biased in writing an article since we resell the Draytek routers now :)
I don't have a problem with that as long as the benefits are accurately quantified and the test method fully described.
 
will there be any update ont he Draytek ones?

seems Draytek only has 2 routers (one very old and one new) in the charts..
I'd love to see how the 20 series (2820, 2920 and 2720) series perform.

and anyone knows if the 2820 series do or will support IPv6?

*edit*
just to be more clear. I also have a DIR-655 wich as been stable, unfortunately my SS5200 will have to be replaced as my ISP will roll out 10Mbps ADSL soon (I know its not the great speed.. but I torrent heavily and every router I've had in my hands, except of this DIR-655 fell to its knees..freezing, restarting..etc..)
I've heard many great things of draytek. and well, I just want to know well if its convenient for me to get a 2820n..
I'm looking at stability and connection capacity (in transfers and number of connections) and if these products are future proof (hence the IPv6 question..)

thanks in advance, and sorry for bumping such a old thread.
but theres so few information of Draytek its.. just..SAD.
 
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Draytek IP6

The 2820 does not support IP6 at this time. Only the 2130 series handles IP6.

Note I'm biased since we're a Draytek reseller but we have the 2820n running with an ADSL line and a Cable line balanced in our small office and it's rock solid.

We're able to dynamically allocate bandwidth/QOS to our voip calls and force them to go out the DSL line since our cable line has frequent changes in latency that mess up voip calls.

We also had the 2930vn at our office for a few months before I sold it to a customer and it gave us zero problems.

The Commtouch web filter integration also works great for protecting one's household from inappropriate web sites.

Blair Collins
draytek.interlockit.com
blog.interlockit.com

will there be any update ont he Draytek ones?

seems Draytek only has 2 routers (one very old and one new) in the charts..
I'd love to see how the 20 series (2820, 2920 and 2720) series perform.

and anyone knows if the 2820 series do or will support IPv6?

*edit*
just to be more clear. I also have a DIR-655 wich as been stable, unfortunately my SS5200 will have to be replaced as my ISP will roll out 10Mbps ADSL soon (I know its not the great speed.. but I torrent heavily and every router I've had in my hands, except of this DIR-655 fell to its knees..freezing, restarting..etc..)
I've heard many great things of draytek. and well, I just want to know well if its convenient for me to get a 2820n..
I'm looking at stability and connection capacity (in transfers and number of connections) and if these products are future proof (hence the IPv6 question..)

thanks in advance, and sorry for bumping such a old thread.
but theres so few information of Draytek its.. just..SAD.
 

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