Finally Sick of UBNT. Need AP -Without- Corp. Network

[Trip]

Yeah, enterprise stuff is likely going to be overkill for this.

I'd say Cisco might be the "safer" bet in terms of maturity, and potentially stability, too, although the EWS stuff garners pretty decent feedback. They're both Qualcomm based, 4x4, with similar antenna and RF designs, so link-layer quality should be roughly similar. It's the distro and code riding on top that can make or break stuff like truly seamless roaming and/or multi-SSID co-existence (as you've experienced).

If it were me, personally, I'd probably stay back on an AC stuff, but I guess it all depends on your client mix and how badly you want to be ready for the forthcoming AX-only features... if/when they're actually enabled.

 

[VisionxOrb]

I run some Engenuis APs, they've been solid for me.

 

[Quantum`]

Hmm. I need this thing to work. And for my homebuyers I've gotta be cautious.

It costs but I guess it'll be the discontinued Cisco WAP581. Appears to have an internal controller, and they only imply that it can handle slave APs ("Designed to scale smoothly as your organization grows, the access points feature controller-less Single Point Setup, which simplifies the deployment of multiple access points without additional hardware."), but it seems to support 16.

Never liked Cisco. They were too big back in my days at DEC. Wish there were a better option for ~$200.

Thanks Trip.

 

[MichaelCG]

What is your longer term support model for these? Are you supporting or will the customer? Installing an already discontinued model could complicate the support model knowing that firmware updates and such are going to be hard to come by sooner than later.


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[Quantum`]

My support model is me, myself, and I.

I've thoroughly gone through Cisco's Aironet and Catalyst lines, and they just ain't worth $500, especially 3 per house.

My buyers aren't going to pay attention to it as long as it just works. If one dies they'll just get another one, or try to contact me. It's not up to me to maintain their sh*t forever. I just have to make sure it's done right.

 

[MichaelCG]

I have always wondered how well “smart” homes that are being built now are going to fare in 5 years. Someone has to maintain the systems or they will become a huge vulnerability risk. Similar to the challenges we face in the enterprise and factories as more and more technology rolls in that has questionable support life cycles.

Random thoughts....not helpful in your specific journey.


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[Quantum`]

The APs on each floor will connect by wire to what I hope will be a combined PoE/switch/firewall appliance in the equipment room. Into its WAN port will go the ethernet directly from the fiber ONT. About as simple as it can be.

The HVAC/DHW system also will be radically different than conventional. My company is a member of the International Passive House Institute and I'll be studying their work. The houses will be PassivHaus certified.

Buyers likely won't know or care how the network works, as long as it works. And sure the appliances will need firmware to be updated. But for 95% of Americans, who is washing their feet when it comes to updating their firmware? And how many developers are so considerate in providing such valuable infrastructure, especially for 'workforce' housing? (Hint: none)

It's a security axiom that simpler means a smaller attack surface. I intend to make a notebook for each house describing its systems.

 

[Quantum`]

So I bought the WAP581 but as soon as I started setting it up had all kinds of problems. Wifi would come and go, sometimes twice in a row. And after a couple hours I lost both 2.4GHz and 5GHz. So I returned it to Newegg for exchange.

NINE DAYS just to get from me to the seller, and halfway through I was fed up so converted it to a refund. It's not practical to buy from Newegg if this is how returns are. The seller has now had the unit for four days and still no refund.

So I ordered another WAP581 from another seller on Newegg. Got it this week and yesterday installed it. To my horror it started doing the same thing! I tried turning off all the fancy settings, but I still intermittently lost 5GHz.

Then this morning it hit me: I have the AP on an 802.11af port on my GS728TP switch. What if the WAP581 needs at? Checked the quick-start guide and:

Smart Power Source is designed for detecting the power source from an external power adapter or PSE(802.3at and 802.3af). When both external power adapter and PSE co-exist, the external power adapter will take higher priority, which means that the power source is from the external power adapter. It does not matter whether the power source is from external power adapter or PSE(802.3at and 802.3af), the WAP581 will perate at the appropriate mode automatically.

Smart Power Source ensures that the WAP581 remains functional when powered by 802.3af only, and automatically adjusts behavior as below:
• 5G radio disabled
• 2.4G radio in 2x2:2ss (spatial-stream) mode
• 2.5GbE(EHT0/PD) downgrade to 1GbE

So lo, I was lucky to be getting 5GHz at all.

Switched to an at port, and so far, so good.

 

[MichaelCG]

I never buy from 3rd party sellers on Newegg. If I wanted luck of the draw on vendors, I would buy off of eBay. I shop Newegg for their reputation and service....not for their shared marketplace.

 

[Trip]

Indeed, the only marketplace from which I even think about buying via third-party is Amazon, and only if the product is offered Prime. Period. All other platforms expose the buyer to too much third-party discretion. If you buy from NewEgg, only ever buy direct (you can filter product results on "Sold by NewEgg" only).

Refocusing on the task at hand, just FYI, Cisco is in the midst of refreshing their small-business product lines, now branded "Cisco Business". For wifi APs, two new product lines are the 100 and 200 series, with the 4x4 CBW240AC being the closest replacement for the WAP571. Conveniently, they also sell them in 3 and 5-unit packs, with some progressive savings as you move up-volume.

 

[Quantum`]

I never never buy from Amazon because they treat their workers like peasants. I have never worked there but I am in their home town. Amazon epitomizes the commoditization of people; it is the new feudalism, and Prime customers (like my son) are enablers.

Trip you've helped here alot, but if you don't understand what I'm talking about I've lost respect.

I hear people here about filtering on NewEgg, but there are a number of things I've searched on that they don't have, the WAP581 being one. I've just bought two Odroid N2+'s, what I think is the finest SBC available, and had to order them from Korea; NewEgg didn't have them. NewEgg has always given great service but I believe they've been narrowing their offerings as they've brought in third-party sellers.

 

[Trip]

I gotcha, understand and sympathize. As to finding substitutes for Amazon, it will be interesting to see if/how consumption habits shift in the wake of that kind of stuff being exposed. It starts with me voting with my wallet, though, that I do understand.

Best of luck with the WAP581's. Do come back to report on how they pan out.

 

[Quantum`]

As it happens, this came out today:

Amazon boss Jeff Bezos rejects claims company acted like a 'drug dealer'

The Amazon boss is questioned by US Congress on one company's experience with his business.

www.bbc.com

On the WAP581 when I open my laptop in the morning I have hardly any throughput. Turn off the laptop NIC and back on again and then it's Ok. Never had these kind of wobblies with UBNT. I have too many emergencies to handle each day, than to deal with nonsense.

I guess I have to return this AP. Cisco definitely has the name, but IMO this AP is a mess. (As soon as I got each of them I installed the latest firmware) I guess I'll try the CBW240AC but if that has problems, that's it for Cisco.

It does have a limited lifetime warranty, but I'm a bit suspicious that it doesn't have an internal controller:

Deploy and configure multiple Cisco Business Wireless access points and mesh extenders easily without a physical controller, using Cisco Business Mobile app. Optional multisite remote management is available through Cisco FindIT Network Management.

I can block its MAC from getting out.

 

[Quantum`]

Yep I gotta say, the CBW240AC is a clanging success. A bit weird to set up but not a single glitch or problem. Sent back the WAP for a refund. The 240AC is my device.

It's built alot cheaper than the WAP but the signal is better and it is always there.

I still do not have wifi calling for unknown reasons There's a wifi calling page on the TMobile website but it didn't have anything I haven't already done. I tried instlling the TMobile app, but it refuses to run without G**gle Play, and I don't have any of their pernicious apps installed.

 

[Trip]

Good to hear about the 240AC. If only I had discovered it earlier, I would have certainly recommended it over the WAP581. Also encouraging that it appears to be stable right at first release -- an unfortunate rarity these days...

 

[Quantum`]

Thanks for your help Trip.

I've also gotta say that I've been through RPi 3B, 3B+, Tinkerboard, and Arduino Yun and hated them all (except Yun).

But this ODroid N2+ is dazzling. Hella fast and absolutely no glitches, running their Ubongo Mate. This is going to be running security cameras on a remote property and I need something that -works-, and this is it. Been programming it to pass through RTSP streams to my home server, firewall, remote desktop, my old UBNT AP (for staff), WireGuard VPN, etc, and I am very happy with it. Recommended.

 

[snoms]

The Engenius EWS377AP is wifi6, WPA3, 8 antennae, it seems to have stand-alone management, mentions 'mesh' mode, has raucous Tx power of 23dBm in 5GHz. $314.

Hint: There´s Engenius EWS377AP hardware revision 2., i.e. EWS377APv2.

Yep I gotta say, the CBW240AC is a clanging success. A bit weird to set up but not a single glitch or problem. Sent back the WAP for a refund. The 240AC is my device.

Interesting, I haven´t spotted this access point, yet:

Feature	Cisco CBW240AC (admin guide)	Grandstream GWN7630 (user guide)
chipset	?	Mediatek MT7615
driver	?	mt76 (linux kernel)
4x4:4 MU-MIMO for 5 GHz	yes	yes
Dynamic VLAN assignment with RADIUS	yes	yes
Local cluster with up to 50 access points	yes	yes
Beamforming	yes	no
SNMP	yes	no (waiting for feature request)
Airtime fairness	no?	no (waiting for feature request)
warranty	Cisco lifetime	2 years
IEEE 802.11k/v/r	no/yes/yes	yes/yes/yes
ACL	yes	no
client isolation	no?	yes
mature product	yes	not yet
price	< 140$	< 100$

Support airtime fairness on CBW240AC, then I throw away my GWN7630s...

 

[Trip]

Support airtime fairness on CBW240AC, then I throw away my GWN7630s...

ATF is available on nearly all outgoing WAP models, so I would expect the same for the CBW series as well. That said, it can only be set to "on" or "off" on the WAPs, no custom policies or groupings, like what you get with Catalyst (Aironet), but that's of course enterprise kit and price tag, so I'd presume just having ATF at all is plenty enough for your needs?

 

[Quantum`]

I can't find ATF (and don't know what that is) but it does have a firewall which the WAP didn't, VLAN, QoS in Bronze thru Platinum, etc. The interface is kind of cartoonish compared with the WAP.

On this one I didn't take it apart for pictures as I was exasperated at this point and just got it up there. It's serving well as if it's not there. Only wish I could get wifi calling working.

 

[Krisbi]

so I'd presume just having ATF at all is plenty enough for your needs?

Well, CBW240AC is more current than the WAP and less expensive. Airtime fairness would be great to have in the CBW series, aswell. The access points are meant to work in class rooms. When 1 single client is still able to slow down the rest of all other connected clients is really bad nowadays.