For any one who upgraded to Windows 10, READ THIS!!!!

[htismaqe]

There is no other OS that will offer similar functionality at a higher level of security today or in the near future.

Seriously? Can you say this with a straight face?

 

[L&LD]

Seriously? Can you say this with a straight face?

Yes.

Okay, maybe OS/x can, but I'm talking about an OS that enhances productivity in the many varied forms I see with my various customers and not just consumption of media and connecting to less than redeeming social sites.

 

[htismaqe]

Windows has a clear advantage in the consumer space when it comes to gaming.

In business, both Linux and OS X can do what Windows can do. All of the same productivity apps (or functional equivalents) exist for both platforms. The only advantage Microsoft has in the business space is its embedded install base. It most certainly isn't more secure, in fact, its embedded install base all but guarantees it's not.

You speak as someone who has very little experience with OS other than Windows. Because there's certainly more to non-Windows computing than "consumption of media and connecting to less than redeeming social sites."

 

[L&LD]

The gaming advantage that you claim for Windows is something outside my expertise. I also did not mean to imply that non Windows computing was strictly consumption of media and using 'sharing' sites either.

But what I do know is that OS/x can't do is run on proper hardware. And what Linux can't do is run professional programs either.

MS is most small businesses; other OSes are significantly less equipped or capable of running the multitude of hardware and the programs needed to get a certain job done consistently and reliably.

I know I am not wrong about this, I have tried to get very small businesses to use freeware OSes, programs and whatever hardware they had lying around and today most of them are nowhere to be seen. The ones that became successful bought MS products as they could and that is one reason they thrive today. They didn't try to reinvent the wheel, they simply used it to their advantage.

 

[john9527]

And any version of Linux I've tried has failed to impress me enough to even install it on metal.

I was of the same opinion, but I must admit, I am fairly impressed with Linux Mint. The organization of the apps and system functions is exceptional, the gui has improved immensely from older distributions, it had native drivers for all my hardware (unlike Windows 10) and it came with apps that cover all my needs...all in an image <6GB.

 

[htismaqe]

It's called the path of least resistance. There's nothing innovative about using Windows for business, just like there's nothing innovative about using Cisco for networking.

There's a reason my customers are moving away from Windows. Because they have the resources (namely in-house expertise) to do it. Big business has run core computing on Unix/Linux for years and it's slowly but surely making it's way to the desktop. They're seeing exponential savings in terms of both up-front and ongoing costs because Linux is more efficient operating system that doesn't need new hardware every 2 years. There's no dearth of productivity apps, either.

As for the hardware support, I'm not sure what to tell you. I have the same openSUSE distro running on my i7 iMac and on a Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop I bought in 1999. I quite literally have it running on hardware I just had lying around.

 

[sfx2000]

Okay, maybe OS/x can, but I'm talking about an OS that enhances productivity in the many varied forms I see with my various customers and not just consumption of media and connecting to less than redeeming social sites.

I use OSX every day as part of my J.O.B. - and it is as secure and safe as any - and Apple isn't grabbing data on the sly...

I've got VMWare Fusion - so Debian/RedHat Enterprise images, along with Windows* for the random game of solitaire... pretty much all bases are covered..

* Windows - actually, while it plays a mean game of Solitaire, I mostly use it for Visio and Project, which don't have exact analogs to the Mac environment...

But everyone is a snowflake, and everyone is unique and special...

FWIW - best way to keep MS from snooping on your Win10 - don't use a microsoft account to login - and I would stay away from Office365...

 

[sfx2000]

There's a reason my customers are moving away from Windows. Because they have the resources (namely in-house expertise) to do it. Big business has run core computing on Unix/Linux for years and it's slowly but surely making it's way to the desktop. They're seeing exponential savings in terms of both up-front and ongoing costs because Linux is more efficient operating system that doesn't need new hardware every 2 years. There's no dearth of productivity apps, either.

Completely agree..

We're moving to web-apps, as are our customers - we know they're on more than just Windows these days..

htismage and I - we're not that much different - similar roles at different companies...

 

[sfx2000]

I was of the same opinion, but I must admit, I am fairly impressed with Linux Mint. The organization of the apps and system functions is exceptional, the gui has improved immensely from older distributions, it had native drivers for all my hardware (unlike Windows 10) and it came with apps that cover all my needs...all in an image <6GB.

It's ubuntu/debian at the core, eh?

One can get the Mint experience in the PPA's...

 

[L&LD]

It's called the path of least resistance. There's nothing innovative about using Windows for business, just like there's nothing innovative about using Cisco for networking.

There's a reason my customers are moving away from Windows. Because they have the resources (namely in-house expertise) to do it. Big business has run core computing on Unix/Linux for years and it's slowly but surely making it's way to the desktop. They're seeing exponential savings in terms of both up-front and ongoing costs because Linux is more efficient operating system that doesn't need new hardware every 2 years. There's no dearth of productivity apps, either.

As for the hardware support, I'm not sure what to tell you. I have the same openSUSE distro running on my i7 iMac and on a Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop I bought in 1999. I quite literally have it running on hardware I just had lying around.

Your post just proves my points. Nobody in the small business world has in house 'anyone's'. Neither do they want to run on 16 year old systems. Professional productivity programs I see them running are not just simple office based file sharing chores. They need AutoCAD, PS CS6 and above and many other professional programs that run optimally on Windows and the latest hardware platforms.

They upgrade every two years (approx.) because they need to keep up with their industry. Not because they don't want to save money.

If an organization is so large it can have an IT support staff to administer and keep a mish mash of open source programs running while saving money, more power to them.

The rest of the world merely buys what they need off the shelf and use it as best they can (meaning; with as little paid for support as possible).

 

[sfx2000]

But what I do know is that OS/x can't do is run on proper hardware. And what Linux can't do is run professional programs either.

What is proper hardware? Mac's are pretty solid, and feedback from the Win community, they're darn good PC's as well...

And what are professional programs? We know that productivity, which a couple of exceptions, is pretty much covered when comparing to the Windows world, and we have a few things that Windows users would likely appreciate - but the world is moving beyond WinTel as a corporate lock-in, esp at my level - call centers and points of sale, those need a managed platform, but from an engineering/systems design/product development perspective, I want to have the best tools for the job, and to enable my direct reports and adjacent teams - if it's Macs they need, or Windows boxen, or a Ubnutu, they've got it, and I'll make it happen.

I'm pretty much beyond platform advocacy - they're all tools at the end of the day..

 

[john9527]

It's ubuntu/debian at the core, eh?

One can get the Mint experience in the PPA's...

True enough....I just grabbed the first full package from the many online reviews that looked interesting to me. It had been a while since I had loaded any Linux and wanted to see what a current offering was like out-of-the-box.

 

[L&LD]

Yes, everyone is different.

But what I am seeing is that most OS/x business users are moving to a Windows platform and not even considering Linux or versions thereof. Even a long time acquaintance which would heckle me mercilessly to join the dark side (apple) has finally given up on their restrictive computing environment. Even with all the advantages that he has found to be 'apple only', and true even for products from MS for the mac.

Visio and Project are good examples of strictly Windows professional software too. Even if there are alternatives, try getting your collaborators to learn something new. Worse is if they are at a different company.

MS can be made fun of and a lot of it is deserved.

Ignoring the options that using Windows opens up (including VM's of all lessor OSes) is done at each small businesses peril. Almost any other OS does not have that caveat and that is the bottom line for a lot of my customers.

I'm sure that OS/x is a good fit for you. But I am almost 100% positive that if it did not exist, you would not miss it for more than a tenth of a second either*.

*Meaning; there are no programs that are intrinsically linked to OS/x and not found anywhere else and that are also fundamental to your J.O.B.

I use OSX every day as part of my J.O.B. - and it is as secure and safe as any - and Apple isn't grabbing data on the sly...

I've got VMWare Fusion - so Debian/RedHat Enterprise images, along with Windows* for the random game of solitaire... pretty much all bases are covered..

* Windows - actually, while it plays a mean game of Solitaire, I mostly use it for Visio and Project, which don't have exact analogs to the Mac environment...

But everyone is a snowflake, and everyone is unique and special...

FWIW - best way to keep MS from snooping on your Win10 - don't use a microsoft account to login - and I would stay away from Office365...

 

[L&LD]

I'll admit, I am intrigued by your post and Linux Mint. Any specific versions of it you recommend?

As to the native drivers issue. If an Windows OS has all the drivers necessary for my system, it means that I have an old system (so, not a selling point for the OS). But I guess this means much more on a Linux install, of course.

I don't remember the last Ubuntu setup I tried. But I do remember I had to re-install Windows from the ground up again.

VM's for the win?

I was of the same opinion, but I must admit, I am fairly impressed with Linux Mint. The organization of the apps and system functions is exceptional, the gui has improved immensely from older distributions, it had native drivers for all my hardware (unlike Windows 10) and it came with apps that cover all my needs...all in an image <6GB.

 

[AdvHomeServer]

AdvHomeServer,

Easy to attack the side of that big barn called MS and Windows, but where are the reviews and counterpoints to using and depending on the utilities that are being praised in that article?

I do agree that if features are turned off, they should be off completely. But I also know that if I want to keep communicating with and staying current for my customers I have to give up some of the control I had in the past.

We are already a connected society and that comes with certain tradeoffs. There is no other OS that will offer similar functionality at a higher level of security today or in the near future.

Going back to Linux is like re-inventing the wheel. I'm too old to do that, again.

And any version of Linux I've tried has failed to impress me enough to even install it on metal.

Have you seen my website? I cover a lot of windows stuff on it. The article about Anywhere Access is extremely popular. It's probably the most popular article about it world wide. Google it.

If not for Android on tablets and phones, Windows would still rule. The family is used to new ideas now. None use Windows centric applications outside of work. Wine on linux is supposed to be capable. It'll run Quicken if needed.

If I didn't need to replace Acronis for Win 10 and if MS weren't so intrusive, I would routinely upgrade to Win 10. Now, I'm interested in linux, again. This time it might be a good fit. I'm especially interested in thin client computing, if possible. Also, I am happy to need less antivirus junk stealing cycles.

Just for grins, I eventually want to try to put Esxi free on my router box, run the pfSense router in one VM and the thin client server in the other. From a practical point of view, this isn't a good idea because the hypervisor might need the router ... which is down because the hypervisor is updating. But, heck, why not try?

Anyway, if thin client works, it's the future of computing and MS is in big trouble. Someone will figure out how to package free linux and free thin client programming. The open source home mainframe ... I mean home cloud server ... will be the next big thing.

 

[htismaqe]

Visio and Project are good examples of strictly Windows professional software too. Even if there are alternatives, try getting your collaborators to learn something new. Worse is if they are at a different company.

There's nothing for them to learn. I can create documents in Pages and they can open them in Word. Creating proprietary formats is the antithesis of innovation. You talk about Windows as if it's a superior operating system, but your reasoning for using it is because they've created a need for software that you can't get anywhere else. Those are two completely different ideas.

Ignoring the options that using Windows opens up (including VM's of all lessor OSes) is done at each small businesses peril. Almost any other OS does not have that caveat and that is the bottom line for a lot of my customers.

I have run Windows 7 natively on my iMac and used VirtualBox for Linux VMs. Running VirtualBox on OS X is superior on the same hardware. It's faster, uses less resources, and I can run more VMs at one time than on Windows. If I actually needed Windows anymore, I could run it in a VM with little detriment and use any of those proprietary software packages you mention. Not only that but my personal data is completely safe from any of the millions of Windows viruses, which are sandboxed inside the VM.

I'm sure that OS/x is a good fit for you. But I am almost 100% positive that if it did not exist, you would not miss it for more than a tenth of a second either*.

*Meaning; there are no programs that are intrinsically linked to OS/x and not found anywhere else and that are also fundamental to your J.O.B.

You're completely discounting the most important thing - the user experience. On a day to day basis, performing basic functions, like uninstalling an application for example, is superior to Windows in every way.

I'm not a Cultist, I'm a convert. I've been using Windows since 3.1 WFW. After 25 years of dealing with the crap, I had enough. It's nice to actually use an operating system that doesn't require hours of tweaking and maintenance. It's nice to be able to use my computer for days on end without rebooting and not have it crash because the operating system has more bloat than a dead raccoon on the side of the road.

 

[L&LD]

"outside of work"... "Wine on Linux is supposed to be capable" "This time it might be a good fit".

Yes, I've been there done that. Good luck with this iteration of your Linux explorations.

Using tablets and phones, Android or not, is not a productive environment or platform in my circles. Great toys for the kids though.

I do not doubt that in your world Linux is a possible answer. But I do not have the time or the same hopefulness as you to explore that possibility in the near future for the Nth time this decade.

But I will be eager to learn what you may want to share about it.

Thin clients is what MS and PC's killed so long ago and opened up computing for the masses. Now, we're going back to those caveman days? Lol... not at you, just the state of the tech world in general.

I will have to checkout your website when I have a chance. I remember now that you were updating it a while back, correct? Is that done yet?

Have you seen my website? I cover a lot of windows stuff on it. The article about Anywhere Access is extremely popular. It's probably the most popular article about it world wide. Google it.

If not for Android on tablets and phones, Windows would still rule. The family is used to new ideas now. None use Windows centric applications outside of work. Wine on linux is supposed to be capable. It'll run Quicken if needed.

If I didn't need to replace Acronis for Win 10 and if MS weren't so intrusive, I would routinely upgrade to Win 10. Now, I'm interested in linux, again. This time it might be a good fit. I'm especially interested in thin client computing, if possible. Also, I am happy to need less antivirus junk stealing cycles.

Just for grins, I eventually want to try to put Esxi free on my router box, run the pfSense router in one VM and the thin client server in the other. From a practical point of view, this isn't a good idea because the hypervisor might need the router ... which is down because the hypervisor is updating. But, heck, why not try?

Anyway, if thin client works, it's the future of computing and MS is in big trouble. Someone will figure out how to package free linux and free thin client programming. The open source home mainframe ... I mean home cloud server ... will be the next big thing.

 

[L&LD]

If you're comparing Pages to Word and even worse, Visio and Project, I don't know how to respond?

Nobody created a need for any specific software. The software was created because of a need. Yes, Visio does have distant cousins, granted. But Project is something I was using 20 years ago and nothing compares to it still. Even with all it's weaknesses and omissions, it is better than trying to track a large or continuous project with a word processing program. And this is just one specific example of what is not available in any other OS.

Using professional productivity programs inside a VM is lunacy. These programs require real hardware and real expensive hardware to run optimally. They'll boot up inside a VM, but they will not be as fast and those few points difference are important to business owners who need any advantage possible against their competitors.

The user experience is important and all users like the options Windows offers with how programs, data files and shortcuts can be run, arranged or viewed. OS/x is far more restricting to the point of being comical, compared to any other OS. Uninstalling programs is superior in OS/x but it is not a day to day thing either for most systems. Once setup, they are just used as is and the last few years of Windows OSes have been more and more self healing and stable for me and my customers too.

I don't see the crap you do. But I do see the restrictions and / or time requirements that moving from Windows would bring.

I'm not a cultist either. I am a realist.

And one customer stated it best when he briefly contemplating moving to the apple platform (he's a graphic designer). Paraphrasing him, he said 'to move my current main system to a roughly equivalent Mac Pro desktop and re-buy the programs I already have along with a compatible printer, it will cost me over $40K'.

When I asked him if he would do it? He said 'to make the decision to move is easy and can be done in less than a day or a weekend at most, but in the end, I'll have paid almost 2.5 times what my current system costs and have less capabilities (hardware) and less options (software) than what I have now'.

That was a few years ago and the last time (almost a three years ago) we spoke about that possibility for him he still hadn't jumped but instead, had come to the conclusion that he never would. When pressed for the 'why', he stated that he had used a Mac Pro setup similar to what he spec'd and it froze, it was slow (the hardware was below what he was running and with no chance of an upgrade on the mac) and the software did not offer anything newer than his Windows based setup already was capable of.

The user experience was noted by him too, but it was of the restrictions OS/x artificially placed on the user, not the liberating example you indicate. But that is one users experience.

I too have proprietary Windows programs that will never be supported in OS/x and running them inside a VM sounds painful (using two different OSes for what end result?).

In the end, I can see how choice is the best thing we have. And of course the choices we make is the best for us and our situations.

There's nothing for them to learn. I can create documents in Pages and they can open them in Word. Creating proprietary formats is the antithesis of innovation. You talk about Windows as if it's a superior operating system, but your reasoning for using it is because they've created a need for software that you can't get anywhere else. Those are two completely different ideas.



I have run Windows 7 natively on my iMac and used VirtualBox for Linux VMs. Running VirtualBox on OS X is superior on the same hardware. It's faster, uses less resources, and I can run more VMs at one time than on Windows. If I actually needed Windows anymore, I could run it in a VM with little detriment and use any of those proprietary software packages you mention. Not only that but my personal data is completely safe from any of the millions of Windows viruses, which are sandboxed inside the VM.



You're completely discounting the most important thing - the user experience. On a day to day basis, performing basic functions, like uninstalling an application for example, is superior to Windows in every way.

I'm not a Cultist, I'm a convert. I've been using Windows since 3.1 WFW. After 25 years of dealing with the crap, I had enough. It's nice to actually use an operating system that doesn't require hours of tweaking and maintenance. It's nice to be able to use my computer for days on end without rebooting and not have it crash because the operating system has more bloat than a dead raccoon on the side of the road.

 

[azazel1024]

Windows has a clear advantage in the consumer space when it comes to gaming.

In business, both Linux and OS X can do what Windows can do. All of the same productivity apps (or functional equivalents) exist for both platforms. The only advantage Microsoft has in the business space is its embedded install base. It most certainly isn't more secure, in fact, its embedded install base all but guarantees it's not.

You speak as someone who has very little experience with OS other than Windows. Because there's certainly more to non-Windows computing than "consumption of media and connecting to less than redeeming social sites."

I have lots of Linux experience and a fair amount of OSX experience. No, Linux can't come close, ESPECIALLY in an enterprise space, but even in a consumer space, it really can't. Sure, Libre Office has gotten better, but it still isn't close to MS office, just as one tiny little example. Then you get in to a lot more stuff and Linux TENDS (but not always) to not be nearly as easy to implement a lot of things. Sometimes it is better when you do get them implemented, but just as a tiny example, even if you know exactly what you are doing (and I do), it takes me roughly 7-8 minutes to setup robust and secure SMB file sharing on windows with all of the fun user options, etc. to share out a half a dozen folders and a drive (oh and you have SMB Multichannel to other Windows 8+ machines, which you don't have on Linux). On Linux it takes me around 15-20 minutes to do the same, with less performance. Linux is a lot lighter weight, which can be a big perk. I can also do some things on Linux I can't with Windows. But most of those I typically don't care about and I don't think 99.9% of consumer care about either. In the enterprise space for a SERVER, maybe 50% of users don't care, which means most do care. A lot of functions though that are impossible to implement on Linux, at least not without running Windows emulators or VMs...which is semi-defeating the point. By functions I mean applications that flat out do not exist for Linux.

Linux is fine, but for most consumers it frankly does suck. Even for a number of power users (I'd consider myself one) it is not a great OS.

OSX in some ways comes closer to Windows and in some ways exceeds it...but again, you can run in to limitations on what will run on it, without VMs anyway. I also personally don't like the general setup. Some of it falls in to not windows enough. Some of it too is...well, even though I've been using one Linux distro or another for 20 years, I frankly don't like the terminal compared to "DOS" terminal in Windows. Maybe it is because I've been using DOS and then Windows for nearly 30 years...but Linux/OSX terminal always feels so darned klunky to me.

Also, no, I am not a huge fan on the privacy intrusion that is Windows 10. However, for some things (like my tablet), Linux and OSX just flat out aren't an option.

 

[azazel1024]

On the older hardware for a second, oh sure, I can boot a current distro on an old P4 and have it still run "well". The problem is, the applications I'd care about running are slow as hell on a 13 year old system. So, what is really the point other than nerd cred? I don't see most businesses or consumers buying a new system every 2 years, nor do you to run "the current" Windows OS and run it well. A 5 year old system will run it just fine, so long as you don't need cutting edge performance. Still won't be as fast as the brand new system though.

Generally if the hardware is so old that the OS is performing "badly", it is going to be slow for running the applications most businesses or consumers would care about too. Whether it is Linux, OSX or Windows over top of that hardware. There is some, but only minor (generally) performance differences between the different OS with similar or the same applications.