Help Implementing and Understanding Multiple AP Installations

[The8thst]

Hello. This looks like a smart group at this forum. I am an AMX programmer and I design and install high end residential automation and integrated systems.

My typical network install is based around Sonicwall TZ firewalls, ProCurve Switches, and 2-5 APs (lately Engenius APs). I have also used Procurve APs and Netgear Pro APs. We do a lot of wireless touch panels for controlling functions in the houses so roaming and reliability is VERY important.

When using AMX branded wireless panels I have had good luck with the basic process of setting all APs to the same SSID and using proper channel separation. We have started to make the shift to utilize Apple iPads and iPods as the main wireless controllers and they do not roam well with this type of setup.

I am starting to look into a managed wireless system and I am quickly realizing the amount of networking that I don't know.

Some of the products I have been looking into include:
Netgear WMS5316 with their wireless-N APs (not sure about reliability or real time hand offs)
Ubiquiti Unifi (not sure of pricing or if I need a computer running the software 24/7 in the rack)
Ruckus Wireless (this has been licensed by AMX so it will be fully supported, but expensive)
SonicWall Sonic Points (I have found the wireless built into the TZ products to be abysmal and not usable, so I am leery to try these)



What are the thoughts from the pros? I am not afraid of spending money on these solutions, but I want to be sure I understand all of the benefits and that I am able to provide rock solid solutions that work very well.

Let me know what I need to learn more about, what features the systems need, and if it is more cost effective to go the CCNA route to get into Cisco products (only if there are huge performance benefits for the same price range as the above).

Thanks for the help and I hope I put this in the correct forum.

-Pete

 

[Genaro]

Pete, I have been going through the same question. It depends partially on user activities, security needs, and, manageabiltiy.

I happen to have 2 ruckus wireless APs and a zonedirector with me (on loan for eval) and i've chosen this brand for the initial set-up simplicity and for the AP performance. Ruckus seems to have geared itself slightly toward multimedia users needing wifi bandwidth. the 7dB gain "beamforming" antennas (on the 7963) are what seem to give them the edge here.

The APs alone are very easy to config and I'm still messing with the zone director (which seems very easy to config). You really could have 2, 8, 15 APs config'd in a snap. The only downer is the contoller is an appliance which of course is a point of failure - and since the APs have no intelligence they will not operate properly without the controller. Also, there is no firewall functionality.

Another brand worth looking at is Aerohive. It seems more business oriented and the APs are "fat" APs in that there is no controller onsite required since each AP has it's own processing power incl. statefull firewall. One interesting thing about the Aerohive is you can deploy a bunch of the APs and then purchase a manager (cloud-based or in an appliance) to manage them all and since they all are fat APs they will continue to coordinate themselves and operate should the controller fall out (something the ruckus and other controller-based systems can't do). The manager simply initializes them and then is for making mods later.

I will try to post more thoughts on the Ruckus if you like when I've had a few more weeks with it.

chris

 

[Genaro]

oh, and as for pricing, I suspect that by the end of the day both the Ruckus and Areohive would end-up in the same ballpark.

 

[The8thst]

I am definitely interested in your findings on Ruckus and Aerohive.

I really like the topology ideas that Aerohive is basing their system around.

Please let me know what you find out.

 

[Genaro]

Yeah the aerohive solution is pretty damn sweet. It gives you the the benefits management similar to meraki's clowd-based management ($$$$$) but with more flexibility on how and where to host the manager.

will keep you in the loop

 

[thiggins]

With Wi-Fi, roaming is controlled by the client. And Apple provides no way to adjust how "sticky" an iOS device is to the first AP it associates with.

Your best approach may be to reduce AP power to decrease overlap between APs. Then you could see if the iPad/iTouch will get the hint and hop to a stronger AP.

 

[The8thst]

With Wi-Fi, roaming is controlled by the client. And Apple provides no way to adjust how "sticky" an iOS device is to the first AP it associates with.

Your best approach may be to reduce AP power to decrease overlap between APs. Then you could see if the iPad/iTouch will get the hint and hop to a stronger AP.

It was my understanding (assumption may be a more accurate term) that running a managed wireless system with each access point acting as a VAP (virtual access point) would effectively make the client, iOS in this case, only see a single wireless AP and network. The controller, or AP software in Aerohive's case, would then take over all roaming and handoff decisions.

Is this not how it would work?

The prior assumption was more or less confirmed with the white paper from Pakedge found here: http://www.pakedge.com/docs/WAP-CTL-W5NDatasheetV1.pdf

The Pakedge solution is considerably more expensive than Ruckus, so it is not my primary focus at the moment. The controller and APs are probably products they bring in and rebrand since their routers are Fortinet, APs are Sanau (EnGenius), etc.

Thanks for any insight you can send my way.

 

[thiggins]

I read the datasheet you linked and a slightly more informative white paper from pakedge's site.

I am not familiar with their product but I can understand how it might work by having the controller force deauthentication of clients when signal levels get too low. But I don't know how they can force a client to authenticate to a specific physical AP. They don't appear to be using any custom driver on the client side, which I would think would be needed.

I'm not aware that Ruckus has anything similar, i.e. seamless roaming multi-AP systems.

Anyone out there with some experience on how Pakedge can make the claims they do?

 

[The8thst]

The white paper you linked is the one that I meant to post. Sorry about that.

The only way that I can see them being able to do this is by cloning a single MAC address to all of the access points so the client is unable to distinguish one from the others.

Is that not how Cisco handles fast hand offs for cordless VOIP phones in a SIP setup?

This is all somewhat over my head, so I am just grasping at straws and vague understand of certain topics.

I read the datasheet you linked and a slightly more informative white paper from pakedge's site.

I am not familiar with their product but I can understand how it might work by having the controller force deauthentication of clients when signal levels get too low. But I don't know how they can force a client to authenticate to a specific physical AP. They don't appear to be using any custom driver on the client side, which I would think would be needed.

I'm not aware that Ruckus has anything similar, i.e. seamless roaming multi-AP systems.

Anyone out there with some experience on how Pakedge can make the claims they do?