Looking to DIY- Scrap These Parts or Buy New?

[eyal8r]

Hey guys-
I am looking for a NAS for backing up my multiple systems. I want it for FULL and INCREMENTAL backups, and don't believe I need RAID. I'll use this to run a backup of my existing PCs/HTPC.

Here's my current setup-

Router:
Netgear Range Max WNDR3700 Router (I assume this is Gigabit?)

Laptop 1:
- 500gb Drive (Internal) - 60% Full
- 2 TB Drive (External) - 75% Full

Laptop 2:
- 500 GB Drive (Internal) - 70% Full & Growing

PS3 System:
- 500 GB Drive (Internal) - 70% Full & Growing (I hope to convert this to an HTPC in the near future since I never do gaming)

I'd like to build a NAS using FreeNas. I don't need anything HARDCORE, but it has to be dependable. Cost is ALWAYS the first consideration, and then power/heat/noise close behind that.

I have 4 used PC's that I am willing to scrap. I can either mix/match pieces from these 4, or, sell the parts on ebay and use the money for new parts. I'd PREFER to buy new stuff, and just sell the old- but if you guys see something in this list that would do a nice job, I'd be happy to use it. None of these have more than 256-512MB Ram currently installed, so I assume I'd have to buy more.

PC1:
- Board: MSI K7T Turbo Version 3
- CPU: AMD Athlon 1000 (A1000AMT3B) - http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K7/AMD-Athlon 1000 - A1000AMT3B.html
1GHz
Bus: 200MHz
Clock Multiplier: 10
Socket A (462)
K7 Thunderbird

PC2:
- Board: Asus A7n8X-E Deluxe
- CPU (shoot, can't find it in the moment, will report back on this one)

PC3:
Board: Some generic thing- was an 'e-machines' POS computer
CPU: Intel Celeron D processor 330, 2.66GHz 256k L2 Cache 533MHz FSB

PC4:
KT600-A (V1.0) Socket 462 for AMD K7 processor
FSB 400
CPU: AMD Sempron 1GHz

As far as PSU's go, they range from 300w to 350w max, all generic brand names. I assume I can mix/match these with any of the above boards?

Here's what I'd like- I need about 4-5TB of data backed up in the moment. However, I'd like room to expand in the future. The cases I have COULD suffice for holding 3+ HDDs. I'm VERY open to getting a nicer, smaller case as well- preferably one with room to expand in the future.

It doesn't have to be the FASTEST transfer rates out there- but something decent. Shoot- if it's faster than my External USB2 Drive, I'd be happy (WD Elements). I assume I'll be buying 2-3 either 2TB or 3TB drives. I'm not sure if I need IDE, SATA, SATA2, or whatever. I'm looking for a decent setup, that is not too costly. I figure I can ebay all these parts and put that towards the new hardware if needs be (not including the drives, obviously).

What do you guys recommend here? I'd prefer NEW hardware- so what specifically? I've been reading for weeks now, and my head is spinning- I don't know what's good and what's not. I'd love to hear any/all suggestions!
Thank you!

 

[eyal8r]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I appreciate it!

 

[thiggins]

You should be using SATA drives. If your mobo doesn't support that, then you'll need something newer.

If you just want backup, just throw some more drives on a Windows box and use it.

 

[eyal8r]

Thanks for the reply. I believe the last MOBO has 2 Sata ports on it. How much ram do I need for basic backup functionality, running FreeNas?

Newbie question here- if there's only 2 sata ports on the board, does that mean I can only use 2 sata drives? Or can you daisy chain drives like the old IDE Master/Slave worked and squeeze in a few additional drives as well?

Will any of these boards/processors work then? I assume so, since this is only for backup...

I appreciate the help!

 

[thiggins]

You don't need a lot of RAM. Commercial Linux NASes run with as little as 256MB.

You can't daisy-chain SATA drives.

Seriously, just throw more drives in a Windows box and be done with it. You'll need to go up a big learning curve on FreeNAS, with little benefit

 

[eyal8r]

OH! So are you suggesting NOT using FreeNas (or any other NAS software at all)? Just boot up windows, and leave it running all the time?

If that's the case, what's the point of running NAS- ie- why do others choose to run NAS instead of what you're suggesting? Just trying to understand the concepts here. It WOULD make it much easier, that's for sure...

 

[thiggins]

Many people do use Windows machines for file sharing and backup. But Windows boxes are bigger, use more power and can be noisier than NAS appliances.

This might help
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/nas/nas-basics/30107-how-to-choose-the-right-nas-for-you?start=1

 

[eyal8r]

ok, that's what I was thinking. I read that article (thanks for posting it)- got some good insights.

It'd be nice to have a smaller, quieter, 'greener' box running in the corner of my office. I think that's the way I'm leaning. Any specific threads out there on good hardware setups? I've been reading the forums a TON- and my head is spinning...

 

[eyal8r]

ok- another few questions here...

OPTION 1
My existing machines are running Win XP Home- this would be the Server. The Clients would be Win7. Any issues there?
My concerns with using an existing machine are: speed, efficiency/power usage, heat and noise. I can strip it down as much as possible to eliminate bloat/extra services not needed. I'd also want the drives to be able to spin down when the backup routine is not running. Do you foresee any problems with this? All the MB's support Wake on Lan...

OPTION 2
I'm looking at the Mobo/CPU combos... specifically the Gigabit E-350. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128468)
I can re-use a case and PSU I have already- throw on some additional RAM (~$40 or so) and possibly a case fan. I can be done with it (not including the HDDs) for less than $200.

I have 1 question:
1) What OS is decent? I know FreeNAS is 'free' - but in terms of not encountering a huge learning curve- is it best to throw WIN 7 on this? Or buy Win Server 2011? OR would it make more sense, and save more money, to throw Win XP on it (scrapped from the old machines)?

So, overall- in terms of expense- which way would you go?

Also- is there a HUGE difference between the heat/efficiency/noise levels of these older machines, and what this new hardware would generate- enough to make it worth the purchase price?

I know it's a ton of questions/info, but it really is appreciated!!!

 

[loyukfai]

Your old desktops are still running, right...? How about installing FreeNAS on them for a trial run and see if you like it...?

Or setup a virtual machine and give it a try.

Maybe you'll decide setting up one yourself is too much trouble and just use something like Mozy instead. Or get a pre-built NAS from the likes of Synology and QNAP and call it a day.

If you're thinking about using one of your old desktop, check their power usage first. For instance, the Celeron D is of the NetBurst architecture which draws a relatively high amount of power even when idle, and if the electricity isn't free or very cheap at your area, the bill can add up fast if it's run 24/7.

Old PC in general is less power efficient.

BTW, there are USB ports on your router and your PS3, which you may consider using them as well. The USB performance on the WNDR3700 is quite dismal though. No idea about the PS3.

One last thing, you don't really have to backup the whole drives, probably only the data, and probably not every piece of it. Think about it, you may actually need much less space than you thought.

Cheers.

 

[eyal8r]

loyukfai-
Thanks for your reply. I've been following your threads lately, was hoping to gain your input. I saw that you recently built a E350 machine w/ a Gigabite MB- which OS did you end up using? How do you feel about it now that you've had a little time for it to settle in somewhat?

I've been looking hard at Synology and QNap as well. I've also realized I really don't need that much storage in the moment. Those 2 are still under serious consideration. Ideally, I want something that I can setup, and sit as an appliance. These are perfect for that. HOWEVER- I also think it's nice to have expandability in the future... my next project is to build an HTPC, which is why I'm looking at needing more space- and thus, a larger backup system ready to handle that addition as well. The other consideration is final cost. The 4 Bay systems I'm looking at are $400-$500, without drives. Whereas building a system is around $200-$300ish, depending on OS and whatnot (recycling parts, etc).

I really like the idea of saving power (= $$$), less heat, less noise. It sounds like in order to achieve that, I need to buy new components.

With all that said- IF I were to build a system, what OS would you recommend? I'd really prefer to 'set it and forget it' kind of thing. I want it to run and never have to worry about it until it alerts me of needing more/replace drives, etc. I started out planning on using FreeNas, but have since read that this requires constant tinkering/fussing with (but not clear as to why that was stated).

Any thoughts/insights as to an OS, IF I were to DIY?

Thanks for the help!!!

 

[eyal8r]

BTW- I'm also trying to decide if I want to also use this system as ONLY backup- or- to also store all my media on for a file/media server. I know you can do BOTH with either of these options- but I'm not sure how comfortable I am combining a backup system with a file serving system. If I were to do that, then I need to look at RAID options as well, which, I was trying to steer clear of. ie- how would I store original copies of media/files in the same place as the backup copies of other files- and then get backups of those media files somewhere else? Again, still a little fuzzy for me there...

I also like the idea that if something goes wrong, a component fails, etc- in a DIY solution, I can easily replace it and get it back up/running. Whereas a pre-built NAS, it's proprietary hardware that I have to depend on the Manufacturer to support. I know these guys are now offering up to 3 yrs support- but in my experience, it's always better for me to DIY just in case.

Your thoughts???

 

[stevech]

loyukfai-
Thanks for your reply. I've been following your threads lately, was hoping to gain your input. I saw that you recently built a E350 machine w/ a Gigabite MB- which OS did you end up using? How do you feel about it now that you've had a little time for it to settle in somewhat?

I've been looking hard at Synology and QNap as well. I've also realized I really don't need that much storage in the moment. Those 2 are still under serious consideration. Ideally, I want something that I can setup, and sit as an appliance. These are perfect for that. HOWEVER- I also think it's nice to have expandability in the future... my next project is to build an HTPC, which is why I'm looking at needing more space- and thus, a larger backup system ready to handle that addition as well. The other consideration is final cost. The 4 Bay systems I'm looking at are $400-$500, without drives. Whereas building a system is around $200-$300ish, depending on OS and whatnot (recycling parts, etc).

I really like the idea of saving power (= $$$), less heat, less noise. It sounds like in order to achieve that, I need to buy new components.

With all that said- IF I were to build a system, what OS would you recommend? I'd really prefer to 'set it and forget it' kind of thing. I want it to run and never have to worry about it until it alerts me of needing more/replace drives, etc. I started out planning on using FreeNas, but have since read that this requires constant tinkering/fussing with (but not clear as to why that was stated).

Any thoughts/insights as to an OS, IF I were to DIY?

Thanks for the help!!!

Consider too, in your goal for an appliance, that the Synology and QNAP operating systems and Graphical User Interface for all functions is key. You may not want to grunge around in Linux command line day in and day out. Not that you can't learn all this, but to me (an ex-Unix user), I don't want the struggle, esp. for seldom used commands. Consider simply the command line hassles of SMB for windows workgroups, in Linux, versus the two vendors above that do it with simple graphical interfaces. Same for medial players, FTP, etc. So my choice has been to get a two-drive NAS with eSATA or USB3 for backup. Run two 2TB drives as separate volumes not RAID1. Rely on the automated backups to the external drive, plus a third backup of really important files to another medium outside the NAS.

FreeNAS, for me, is a no-go as its UI is too obtuse for it to become an appliance in the home.

I used to worry about drive failures - but in the last few years, I see no failures among 6 or so drives I use 24/7 at home. Maybe I'm lucky. That's the rationale for external drive backups - because the chance of a hosed up file system (no hardware failure), or a NAS circuit board failure "computer", seem more likely than a failure of a NAS drive as well as the external backup. I have a WIndows XP PC with RAID1 that's run for several years. That's my (debatable) rationale for not using RAID1.

 

[eyal8r]

Stevech-
Thanks for your time and response. Just to clarify- under your scenario, I would have a 2 bay NAS, with 2TB Drives each. Each drive would be mounted as separate volumes. So I would use 1 of those drives to do incremental backups of my 3 systems/OS (2 laptops and HTPC).

The 2nd drive would be used to backup my MEDIA files (movies, audio/iTunes, pictures, etc) off of the HTPC.

You suggested to also use the 3rd USB External Drive as a backup. Would you use that to backup the entire NAS (both drives, essentially a 4 TB capacity)? Or how would that be used exactly?

Again, thanks for your time. This is definitely a method I am seriously considering.

Side note- any specific NAS you prefer over the other? Synology or QNAP? Thanks again!

 

[loyukfai]

It seems like the project is going to get some new parts, but just in case, if you need to check the power consumption of your existing parts, you may like to invest in or borrow a power meter (http://www.dansdata.com/quickshot041.htm).

Again, pardon me one more time, you really have to be prepared to put in some time to configure everything. In my case, the hardware part is comparatively simpler to the software part. (I spent most of my time on a computer on Windows boxes.) There're some GUI interfaces, but you're still expected to put in some commandlines yourself. It seems to be a cultural difference between *nix and Windows. Being a novice *nix user I should leave this discussion to the experienced. But those generic GUI, frankly, don't instill much confidence in me. In many cases I preferred to use commandlines instead.

Again (and again), it's easy to setup a virtual environment and have a taste on what you're going to do. Heck, you can even have a setup with 8 drives and ZFS, and have some hands-on experience on RAID recovery in the process! I didn't do that, but I should have - I nuked my install once realizing I should had something done differently that I had no idea how to do after the initial installation.

And yes, I have handled some NAS boxes before, albeit not for any significant periods of time. Perfectly fine (and should be the way to go) for people who don't want to tinker with computers, and/or have no time, and/or just want something that works (actually, I think they're already too complex for what I call an average user).

Time (cost) is indeed a significant factor, I literally spent hours trying to get the VPN working behind a masquerading firewall. OTOH, the knowledge learnt could be something valuable, and it can be an enjoyment for some people. But anyway, this is a DIY forum so I'm going to leave it at that. All in all, I would say if I were to do it all again, DIY would still be it.

To give you an idea, I spent roughly 30-40 hours setting it up (and it's mostly done, I expect another 5 hours for some documentation, touchups and call it a day and let it sit in the corner quietly by itself, although the geek part of me urges me to SSH in and just to read /var/log/kern.log from time to time...) while I expected something like 10. It can easily balloon further, prior experience and knowledge would help (you should really be setting up a virtual environment by now...) Lots of time was spent on finding solutions, etc. The VPN part probably took me half of the time (and it was not really a complex setup).

BTW, you may like to check out Windows Home Server. One of the beauties is that it supports Windows Search Protocol (WSP). I'm going to save myself some time and keep the reply short by referring to this. And in any case, feel free to google it yourself. Besides (and among other things), adminstering WHS is mostly, if not purely, point and click - The familarity will make you feel comfortable and reduce your anxiousness.

Oh yes, links to the demos...

QNAP: http://www.qnap.com/liveDemo.asp
Synology: http://www.synology.com/us/products/demo/index.php
Webmin: http://www.webmin.com/demo.html
FreeNAS (in a VM, requires Virtualbox): http://samkear.com/how-to-guides/installing-freenas-virtualbox, see also this
Zentyal (in a VM, requires Virtualbox): http://virtualboximages.com/Zentyal+VirtualBox+VM+Virtual+Appliances
Windows Home Server: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/products/windows-home-server/get-it

I've no experience with parts of an off-the-shelf (OTS) NAS failing. In a relatively ideal situation, one should be able to send the whole device back, including the drives, and it will come back working without any re-configuration, I suppose. Or, if the data is sensitive, to send the failed device back without the drives, get a new/repaired one, pop-in the drives and off you go. But in reality, I think re-configuration would be necessary. OTOH, there should be mechanism to backup and restore the configuration easily. This question is probably better answered about this in the other forums...

And in case the circuit board fails out-of-warranty, it's likely that one will be SOL.

Speaking of this, one of the advantages of Linux software RAID is that it's portable. So far as I gather, with the newer versions, the metedata of the RAID array is stored on the drives themselves, and it's possible to move an array to another machine by just moving the drives, and mdadm (the administering utility) will detect the array and one's back in business. Of course, one still has to mount the filesystem and if LVM is used, there are other configuration still.

Again, I have no idea how the various OTS NAS handle this.

Regarding HTPC, first of all I think cloud media, if there's such a term, is the future - I see no reason for everyone to store a copy of the TV programme/movie/music track at his/her home, and I'm not that into TV/movie/music in the first place anyway. Connectivity in Hong Kong (and in most of the western world, I suppose) is good enough to rely on the cloud for such stuffs. Although it increases the risk of the rising of an Orwellian world, but I'm getting both ahead of time and off-topic......

Anyway, I would say it's relatively easy to setup different drives/folders for different purposes - You can have a RAID volume for important stuffs, and a JBOD for media. But for HTPC you will really have to think about the bandwidth. I haven't researched and given thought about this, but I can imagine HD videos do need and consume a lot of bandwidth...

And it leads us to the issue of RAID vs backups. Often we hear people saying that, RAID is not a backup. We have to put it into context - A RAID array on the working machine is not a backup. Given the current conditions, for most people, I would say a relatively ideal solution (if one has anything important to backup in the first place) is to have a RAID array on a NAS, and cloud backup for the NAS.

Again, different situations command different solutions.

With most people not having a backup at all, the above mentioned is overly way very too complex. Therefore I see a
more streamlined cloud backup system is the way to go in future, something like the Chrome OS. In the mean time,
Mozy and USB sticks can be suffice for many - Losing the photo collection of one's children can be very
disappointing and frustrating, but it's not the end of the world when you put it into a wider perspective... We
shouldn't be heading into philosophy too deeply in this forum...

Back to the material world, the mainboard I picked up was a Soyo and the OS is Debian. Haven't tried FreeNAS myself but from what I gather, it is the simplest of the few NAS-oriented OS out there. However, FreeNAS is based on FreeBSD and so far I know, is not as robust as GNU/Linux in terms of hardware support. There are other differences (most of them I do not understand) as well but that's the most concerning in this case, I suppose.

One of the advantages of FreeNAS/FreeBSD is that ZFS is natively supported.

Sorry for an overlong reply.

Edit: Added some demo links.
Edit2: Addded WHS demo link. Courtesy of 00Roush. http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=36041&postcount=6

 

[eyal8r]

Wow- thanks for the response. That's a lot to take in and consider.

Let me ask this- and simplify it down a bit...

In terms of power usage, heat and noise- which is the better method?
1) A Pre-Built NAS (QNAP, Synology, Drobo, etc).
2) A Windows Machine running Win 7, but has 2 SATA Drives installed (separate volumes) and shared on the network. This would be a new build machine w/ new efficient hardware, with a Gigabit MOBO and either an e-350 or i3.

Also- if I went with option #2 above- would it have the ability to spin down the drives and Wake on Lan only to perform the scheduled backups?

I appreciate the input on this, I think it'll determine which way to go.

 

[stevech]

Stevech-
Thanks for your time and response. Just to clarify- under your scenario, I would have a 2 bay NAS, with 2TB Drives each. Each drive would be mounted as separate volumes. So I would use 1 of those drives to do incremental backups of my 3 systems/OS (2 laptops and HTPC).

The 2nd drive would be used to backup my MEDIA files (movies, audio/iTunes, pictures, etc) off of the HTPC.

You suggested to also use the 3rd USB External Drive as a backup. Would you use that to backup the entire NAS (both drives, essentially a 4 TB capacity)? Or how would that be used exactly?

Again, thanks for your time. This is definitely a method I am seriously considering.

Side note- any specific NAS you prefer over the other? Synology or QNAP? Thanks again!

My thinking is two 1TB drives - assuming you do not have a big collection of DVD videos copied to disk, or a personal DVR like Sage or Microsoft Media Center with a cable tuner. 2TB would be a luxury short term, maybe go to 3TB in a year when they're cheaper. Before the flood in Asia, 1TB were $80.

That would be like $200 for a newer dual-drive Synology/QNAP + 160 for drives. I'm also tempted by the very latest dual-drive from Synology, costs more, but has faster CPU and USB3 (DS212). But eSATA would do, in the older ones and they're $100 cheaper.
Up-sizing the disk, since RAID isn't used, is simply a file copy issue using inbuilt utilities. Also, I assume (!) that I can yank out one of these drives and connect it to a windows or Linux PC that can just mount and read the file system. Nothing special as with RAID0 or RAID5.

I'm thinking of a scenario with two 1TB drives, each a separate volume, not RAID1. Drive 2 has its own file system. Drive 2 is a backup drive 1. And another backup is an external drive. I believe in two backups - or at least two for irreplaceable data like family photos and financial records on disk (I have 12 years of Turbotax and lots more- encrypted.

Mainly, for me, the issue is the user interface simplicity from the Synology/QNAP products, versus the really crude management tools you get with DIY and FreeNAS - or at least I've not found a freeware equivalent to those vendors' integrated UI. Yesterday I loaded the latest Linux MINT on my ITX PC (Gigabyte ITX, AMD E350 CPU). On a 120GB 2.5in boot disk. The Gigabyte has 6 SATA, USB3 eSATA. This Linux MINT is very nice as a desktop - but I could not fine, e.g., a GUI for SMB or NFS, and the rest. I also tried Ubuntu Server and other Linux distributions. I think there's just no there's just no software I can find that makes this DIY a NAS appliance, with Windows OR Linux. So I'll stick with the plan that this ITX PC becomes my HTCP, at the HD TV. And I still need a NAS I can configure and forget.

 

[eyal8r]

Stevech-
That IS making a lot of sense. I've pretty much got it narrowed down to the QNAP between all the pre-built solutions. Specifically, the TS419PII or the TS-419P+. Those are 4-bay units. Why 4-bay? Because the 2-bay is $299 on newegg, the 4-bay is $349. So, $50 more and I get 2 more bays. I don't NEED 4 bays now, but- will be nice to have over the next year or two as I require more and more space, especially for the price.

I like QNAP over Synology or Drobo for multiple reasons- yes, it has a lot more features/abilities. However, the QNAP is much faster, and on those certain units, do offer (2) LAN Gigabit ports. The other guys only offer 1. Drobo is much more expensive, slower, etc. Same w/ Synology.

However- by the time you buy even 2 HDDs and a $350 system, you're in at nearly $600-700 (assuming current HDD prices).

So back to my last question here-
How would the power efficiency, heat and noise compare to a Win7 box running the same drives as network shares? I'm pretty sure we can set Win 7 to wake on Lan, spin down the drives, etc... I could build a box for $200ish, throw Win 7 on there and I'm done for about $300ish (without drives). Essentially, it saves $200-$300 I guess. Your thoughts on that?

 

[eyal8r]

oops- I guess it really only saves about $100 to $150 total. Still, at current HDD prices, that helps offset final cost.

The main question is- can Win 7 run drives as network shares as efficiently, quietly and cool as a QNAP?

 

[eyal8r]

--or-- instead of Window 7, using Windows Home Server 2011 instead...???? That's only $53 at newegg...