Mesh vs redundant WAP routers

[jcwillia1]

Just watched Geekbeat.tv's review of OpenMesh's system of devices.

http://geekbeat.tv/editors-choice-open-mesh-wifi-network-for-large-homes-and-small-businesses/

This guy seems to be head over heels in love with this family of devices but he also seems to have ethernet ports in every place where he has one of these devices (which I won't have).

I had previously decided (and have designed my house with this in mind) to have three wireless access points, one for each floor. I have a 50' wide x 25' deep floor plan for three floors - basement, main floor and upstairs. I have ethernet and a power outlet set near the ceiling on each floor as close to the center of the floor as I could manage.

Is this a better solve than dedicated WAP's set on different channels? Is this perhaps something to add on to that system? In the brief reading that I did before I started this article, it didn't seem like these devices tested all that well.

Just to save time and posts, there is no possibility of changing the house design at this point.

Thanks in advance.

 

[thiggins]

OpenMesh has been around for awhile. Looks like the new thing is the "cloud" management system.

The hardware is N300 2.4 GHz only, but relatively cheap. Can't speak for performance because we haven't tested them.

As long as you have power and Ethernet where you want to place the APs, there is no need for "mesh" / repeating.

 

[jcwillia1]

OpenMesh has been around for awhile. Looks like the new thing is the "cloud" management system.

The hardware is N300 2.4 GHz only, but relatively cheap. Can't speak for performance because we haven't tested them.

As long as you have power and Ethernet where you want to place the APs, there is no need for "mesh" / repeating.

Doesn't seem cost effective at $300 for a full setup.

 

[thiggins]

Doesn't seem cost effective at $300 for a full setup.

What's in the "full setup"?

 

[jcwillia1]

What's in the "full setup"?

he quoted the price at $85 each for thing that receives/transmits/retransmits signal and like $15-$20 each for power adapters.

 

[thiggins]

The OM2P-HS is $75 + $4 for a 12v power wart.

But on the other hand, you can get a refurbed Cisco/Linksys E900 for $22, including power supply on Amazon.

 

[jcwillia1]

The OM2P-HS is $75 + $4 for a 12v power wart.

But on the other hand, you can get a refurbed Cisco/Linksys E900 for $22, including power supply on Amazon.

Seems like the Cisco is the better way to go, yes? Three of those? I'm not buying today but just as a point of comparison.

 

[stevech]

mesh - no.
No standards for mesh networks. All proprietary. Tiny market = buggy.

 

[Java]

Same Boat

I am in the same boat as the OP. I am contemplating the Open Mesh system for my home.

I have failed to create a redundant AP network (Asus RT-N66U as the main, Airport Extreme and Express as APs). I've used the same SSIDs, set the airports as AP's only, etc, but still have problems. Mainly have connection issues and low speed issues outside of the main area.

I have ethernet throughout my house, so I thought the Open Mesh approach seems easy and complete. I was planning on using my Airport Extreme as the router (can't figure out how to disable the wireless on the Asus) and then start adding Open Mesh units around the house. Where I don't have an ethernet connection I can still extend with reduced throughput.

I have a pretty big house with all three floors being used and a big family (i.e., all over the house), so I need something that covers all (including outside deck) and is bullet proof (don't have time to keep playing admin).

Thoughts? Thanks!!

 

[thiggins]

If you think you got low speeds with a multiple AP setup, wait until you try mesh. Wireless mesh imposes the same 50% throughput loss per hop as WDS.

The review that started this thread does not demonstrate a "mesh" system. He used the Open Mesh hardware, but connected all the APs via Ethernet. He even explained why (low throughput).

Maybe the key to solving your problem is different hardware. Let us know how you do.

 

[Java]

If you think you got low speeds with a multiple AP setup, wait until you try mesh. Wireless mesh imposes the same 50% throughput loss per hop as WDS.

The review that started this thread does not demonstrate a "mesh" system. He used the Open Mesh hardware, but connected all the APs via Ethernet. He even explained why (low throughput).

Maybe the key to solving your problem is different hardware. Let us know how you do.

Thanks, Tim.

Isn't the throughput hit from "wireless hops"? Since I have ethernet in most rooms, won't the throughput be maximized? I may have one AP in the kitchen that will use a wireless hop, but that will be the exception vs. rule.

I agree with your suggesting different hardware, which is why I am looking at Open Mesh. Do you have any suggestion on other hardware? I've been through all of the consumer brands (have Asus RT-N66U, Airport Extreme, Airport Express, tired Netgear WNDR3700, Buffalotech, etc.)

I'm open for suggestions. I just thought a mesh system made more sense than continuing my hodgepodge mix of hardware.

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[PrivateJoker]

I am in the same boat as the OP. I am contemplating the Open Mesh system for my home.

I have failed to create a redundant AP network (Asus RT-N66U as the main, Airport Extreme and Express as APs). I've used the same SSIDs, set the airports as AP's only, etc, but still have problems. Mainly have connection issues and low speed issues outside of the main area.

I have ethernet throughout my house, so I thought the Open Mesh approach seems easy and complete. I was planning on using my Airport Extreme as the router (can't figure out how to disable the wireless on the Asus) and then start adding Open Mesh units around the house. Where I don't have an ethernet connection I can still extend with reduced throughput.

I have a pretty big house with all three floors being used and a big family (i.e., all over the house), so I need something that covers all (including outside deck) and is bullet proof (don't have time to keep playing admin).

Thoughts? Thanks!!

I also have Ethernet throughout my house and have used Apple h/w as the main AP previously with and without APexp units also in the mix.

- Right now I run my N66 as the router and primary AP.

- near two of my TV's (for purposes of Netflix, AirPlay, UPnP, etc) I was unable to run Ethernet and got lousy results from MoCA & power line. However I got great results using Linksys e3000 routers (bought on price and ability to run DD-WRT) and have them configured as bridges, thus allowing me to hardwire all AV equip in those two locations. The tx/rx rates I get to my main AP are very acceptable.

- I got poor wifi coverage in one particular corner of house and also in garage (which is important to me, I do a lot of work on my cars where having net access is a huge help). In the end I used a current edition APexp, hard wired to LAN, setup under "create network" mode and actually get much more seamless AP transitions between devices by making SSIDs identical and pick an open channel (vs new discrete SSID).

Also I use it as an Airplay device.

- I strongly recommend you check a post I made within last 48hrs, if you have a MacBook, that will show you how to run InSSider like & beyond wifi surveys, and it's already on your Mac. Doing one where you place your other APs is probably the biggest improvement my wifi has made lately.

I've had as many as 4 APs, as few as one, and tried both WDS & Apple's own flavor of "extend network" (both wirelessly and wired). My current setup with only two APs, and carefully selected channels has allowed me the most speed in the most places I've ever had.

I've used high gain omni antennas, directional antennas, panel antennas, and enterprise class indoor/outdoor high powered APs, among other things. Overall I'm very happy right now and it's very bulletproof, no fiddling or switching APs ever needed.

However my environment (sq feet, construction, ambient RF) isn't the same as yours, just my $0.02 on what works for me.

HTH!

 

[thiggins]

I'm open for suggestions. I just thought a mesh system made more sense than continuing my hodgepodge mix of hardware.

If you are using multiple APs connected via Ethernet, that is not a "mesh" system.

Wireless mesh has a specific meaning. From the Wikipedia link:

Wireless mesh architectures infrastructure is, in effect, a router network minus the cabling between nodes.

The main problem consumers have using wireless networks with more than one AP and a single SSID is that clients tend to stay associated to the first AP they see, even when signal level is very low.

 

[Java]

I also have Ethernet throughout my house and have used Apple h/w as the main AP previously with and without APexp units also in the mix.

- Right now I run my N66 as the router and primary AP.

- near two of my TV's (for purposes of Netflix, AirPlay, UPnP, etc) I was unable to run Ethernet and got lousy results from MoCA & power line. However I got great results using Linksys e3000 routers (bought on price and ability to run DD-WRT) and have them configured as bridges, thus allowing me to hardwire all AV equip in those two locations. The tx/rx rates I get to my main AP are very acceptable.

- I got poor wifi coverage in one particular corner of house and also in garage (which is important to me, I do a lot of work on my cars where having net access is a huge help). In the end I used a current edition APexp, hard wired to LAN, setup under "create network" mode and actually get much more seamless AP transitions between devices by making SSIDs identical and pick an open channel (vs new discrete SSID).

Also I use it as an Airplay device.

- I strongly recommend you check a post I made within last 48hrs, if you have a MacBook, that will show you how to run InSSider like & beyond wifi surveys, and it's already on your Mac. Doing one where you place your other APs is probably the biggest improvement my wifi has made lately.

I've had as many as 4 APs, as few as one, and tried both WDS & Apple's own flavor of "extend network" (both wirelessly and wired). My current setup with only two APs, and carefully selected channels has allowed me the most speed in the most places I've ever had.

I've used high gain omni antennas, directional antennas, panel antennas, and enterprise class indoor/outdoor high powered APs, among other things. Overall I'm very happy right now and it's very bulletproof, no fiddling or switching APs ever needed.

However my environment (sq feet, construction, ambient RF) isn't the same as yours, just my $0.02 on what works for me.

HTH!

Thanks, much!! Is this the post you were referring to: http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=80754&postcount=4?

I forgot about inSSIDer. I downloaded it and will start poking around. Right off the bat, I noticed that I two of the AP were on the same channel. I now have all three spaced out. I'll see if that helps.

I also noticed you use Merlin for your N66. I used to use Tomato for my buffalo and was getting curious about options for the N66. If I read correct one of the recent firmware updates for the N66 may have dialed down the power, correct. Merlin, I assume, give full control on the transmit power.

 

[PrivateJoker]

Thanks, much!! Is this the post you were referring to: http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=80754&postcount=4?

I forgot about inSSIDer. I downloaded it and will start poking around. Right off the bat, I noticed that I two of the AP were on the same channel. I now have all three spaced out. I'll see if that helps.

I also noticed you use Merlin for your N66. I used to use Tomato for my buffalo and was getting curious about options for the N66. If I read correct one of the recent firmware updates for the N66 may have dialed down the power, correct. Merlin, I assume, give full control on the transmit power.

Yes particular the Wireless Diagnostics (Command-2 once you enter it gives you the secret awesome stuff!) which I gave screenshots of here:

http://imgur.com/a/MOdCb#0
(PS - I didn't mean to emphasize InSSider particularly, just that the tool you have built into OSX is not only like InSSider, it's even better. . .)

(more instructions on it are in that post, thanks for digging up - I was posting from my phone at that time)

Merlinware does give you TX/RX power (so does stock f/w I beleive), but at a certain point you're just introducing more noise into your wifi and not helping things (unless your device on the other end can talk back as loud as the AP, the benefit is marginal, at best).

But ya Asus just pushed out f/ws that changed some things based on a lawsuit from Netgear, but it's kind of somewhat sensationalized and I don't know if I can summarize easily the end effect on the gear in consumer hands.

I run 3.0.0.4.374.32 and cannot tell you, or show you evidence of reduced performance on 2.4ghz, on my network.

I think user adjustable radio power on an AP is probably used to the detriment of more networks than not, if you could somehow survey them and test through-outputs, and all the other variables in a decent RF/WiFi survey. . .it's intuitive to see a knob labeled power, and just crank it up, but it's a lot more complex than that.

I use Merlinware because it builds upon the stock f/w with little improvements and modifications, but unlike most other f/ws out there it seems to keep reliability of paramount importance.

The article SNB originally did late last year is insightful to the overall design and philosophy and it's the only 3rd party f/w (and it's actually in co-operation with Asus so not really as "3rd party" as some other projects) that SNB has ever reviewed, and sung the praises of. They say it better than I can. . .

On a tangent, I don't know how much Apple equipment you have but in my experience, whatever secret sauce they use (supposedly not WDS for the last several revs) but if you have a deadspot with no wifi and no nearby Ethernet jack, setting an AP-E or APexp to wirelessly extend a network (eg another apple router plugged into Ethernet acting as an AP) has given me good results in past when used sparingly. Use 3 of them and you'll have saturated all available 2.4ghz chs, etc, sort of defeating the purpose.

If you have Q's I can help with just let me know!

 

[PrivateJoker]

Also the iOS Airport Utility is to use on your iOS device for troubleshooting & Apple branded AP setup/placement, it gives you live RSSI to any connected device (in this screenshot I'm checking my phone's wifi from the AP's perspective).

I believe it's possible to do a hack on unjailbroken phones to give raw RSSI #s the menu bar (similar to field test mode for cell signal), but this is faster & easier for me.

The Asus h/w also gives you a view of connected wifi devices & their connected speeds, but it's #s are usually a bit stale.

 

[Java]

If you are using multiple APs connected via Ethernet, that is not a "mesh" system.

Wireless mesh has a specific meaning. From the Wikipedia link:


The main problem consumers have using wireless networks with more than one AP and a single SSID is that clients tend to stay associated to the first AP they see, even when signal level is very low.

Tim,

I am still having challenges with my home network. I have mix of Asus (main router/AP) and apple (wired APs). I have constant complaints of slow wireless speeds. I suspect part of the problem is as you point out. Any solutions?

Will a system like Open Mesh solve this problem?

Thanks, much

Java

 

[thiggins]

I haven't used Open Mesh, so don't know if it will solve your problem. You also didn't say whether you have assigned different SSIDs to different APs so that users can choose an network with strongest signal.

You also need to assign APs to different channels using 1, 6 and 11

If your clients have adjustments for roaming (check the wireless adapter advanced properties) you might try those.

 

[Java]

I haven't used Open Mesh, so don't know if it will solve your problem. You also didn't say whether you have assigned different SSIDs to different APs so that users can choose an network with strongest signal.

You also need to assign APs to different channels using 1, 6 and 11

If your clients have adjustments for roaming (check the wireless adapter advanced properties) you might try those.

I have two SSIDs (main, guest) and have them on 1, 4, and 8. I'll explore the roaming adjustments.

 

[Java]

More Power?

Would it be better to go with one higher powered AP like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055PKSG6/?tag=snbforums-20

I have a large three story house (finished basement) with a lot of wireless clients (iPads, iphones, etc.). I thought multiple APs was the was to go, but maybe just one 1k mW AP like the PicoStation is better?

Use the Asus (RT-N66U) or AirportExtreme as router?

Family harmony is at risk.