MoCA PoE filter question with external OTA antenna (no cable TV)

[LexCaia]

Hi there.....I hope someone can help as I have spent hours (days) trying to find an answer to this but to no avail. I currently have a HFC NBN connection which is where the existing ‘pay TV’ or cable network can be used to make the final part of the NBN network connection. In this circumstance an HFC line will be run from the nearest available fibre node, to your premises.

I would like to set up a MoCA Network using my existing coaxial cables. I do not have pay (or cable) TV but I do have an external roof antenna for free to air channels. The lead in cable from the antenna is split across the home into each room via a splitter. In the reading I have done to date, I believe I will need a PoE filter placed at the point-of-entry (PoE) of the cable coming into my home before the NBN NTD modem (DOCSIS 3.1) and another one at the lead in cable from the antenna before the splitter (to prevent broadcasting of MoCA signals). My question is, could the PoE filters instead be placed in every room I have a TV outlet if I am unable to easily access the roof to place it before the splitter? Has anyone had a similar set up? Thanks

 

[Tech Junky]

I think you're over thinking things a bit here.

Assuming your OTA feeds into the main splitter where NBN comes in.

NBN <home run / barrel coupler to outlet> cable modem

OTA <filter> main splitter

I setup my own cable connection from the tap to my internal wiring and then just took one of the outlet connectors off the wall and coupled the line to the outlet I use for the CM for a better signal / faster speeds. It's the KISS method of wiring. The closet had a 10 way hub in it but, the DB loss on each connection is more than what I wanted to tolerate for a stronger signal so I eliminated it with the coupler.

There could be issues though if you have too high or low of a signal but, the tech should be able to adjust it when doing the install.

 

[LexCaia]

Assuming your OTA feeds into the main splitter where NBN comes in.

Unfortunately it doesn't. The NBN comes from an underground coax lead in, separate to the OTA. This is the reason why I believe a PoE filter is also needed at the antenna cable lead in as I am wanting to use my existing TV points in the wall for the MoCA network. However since I can't access the roof, can I place the filter instead at each tv outlet? Would that prevent the MoCA signal from broadcasting through the antenna? Thanks

 

[Tech Junky]

The antenna isn't going to broadcast a signal.

https://www.amazon. com/gp/customer-reviews/R3AKBUGFGGTPX5?ASIN=B013J7O3X0 - lengthy / similar setup

So, if you have NBN connect to the one port that you want to use the CM on then leave the rest feeding to the other rooms it shouldn't be an issue as I said above. If you find you have issues with interference on the MOCA side then use a POE filter where the antenna comes into the premises between that and the splitter that breaks out to each room. Think of the POE as a whole home surge protector that you would normally place between the main electrical feed and your breaker box.

Another option would be get a HDHR networked OTA quad tuner and put the antenna directly to that and feed the video signal out to each room over Ethernet or into a PLEX server and feed it by IP to the rest of the house.
I use one of these - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092GCN9NL/?tag=snbforums-20 - this is the latest that includes ATSC3
I used one of these with an older server - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DZSVLTW/?tag=snbforums-20 - doesn't do ATSC3

I would have just stuck with the PCIE version but, when I went to an ADL build for some reason it killed 50% of the channels that worked fine under the 8700K build just fine. I thought maybe it was the card but, tested w/ a new card in ADL and still had the same issue. The box / card have a downloadable tuner/DVR app but, it's limited in what it can do and Plex makes up for it with a Plex pass and automates scheduling and some other perks.

Just tossing some ideas out there. The filter thing doesn't look like that big of a deal though if you wanted to intercept at each outlet for $7/outlet or simplify things at the source of the antenna coming into the house @ splitter.

 

[LexCaia]

The filter thing doesn't look like that big of a deal though if you wanted to intercept at each outlet for $7/outlet or simplify things at the source of the antenna coming into the house @ splitter.

The issue I have is that the source splitter which feeds from the lead in cable from the OTA is in the roof where I can't access, only reason I was wondering if possible to place a filter at each outlet (not as cost effective) but wasn't sure if it would achieve the same outcome. From your comments, it sounds like it would.

Thanks again for the detailed suggestions and explanations!

 

[LexCaia]

Actually can I get away with only having the MoCA filters on the outlets where I have a MoCA adapter or does it really need to go to each TV wall outlet? (assuming I can't place the filter at the source on the lead in cable from the antenna)?

 

[LexCaia]

It should be fine on the moca outlets only as that's where the signal overlap could be an issue.

Thanks very much!

 

[LexCaia]

The antenna isn't going to broadcast a signal.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/R3AKBUGFGG/?tag=snbforums-20 - lengthy / similar setup

By the way, if you get the chance, could you resend the link above as I would love to read it. I tried to open it but received a "Sorry couldn't find the page error". Cheers

 

[degrub]

OTA TV signal does not overlap with MOCA. No need to isolate one from the other. Just take the moca modem TV out and route that to your TV client. Most modems have this. It is not amplified as part of the moca modem function.

As long as the cables carrying DOCCIS3.1 are separate and isolated from the cables carrying MOCA, then no issue. A MOCA filter at the head splitter inlet (if used for moca distribution), helps by reducing noise on the moca bands. THat is the only place you might want one.

i have OTA TV signal running across my moca network using Actiontec 6200 modems. The amplified TV signal feeds into the TV port of the first moca modem.

You will very likely need an OTA TV signal amp at the closest point to the antenna due to the additional coax connections. You want this before combining with MOCA signals. Preferably on the antenna mast. See ChannelMaster TV amps for guidance.
Additional OTA TV amps not likely to be needed unless you have very high losses. Use a splitter of the correct number of ports for the number of distribution points for TV if possible.

 

[LexCaia]

A MOCA filter at the head splitter inlet (if used for moca distribution), helps by reducing noise on the moca bands

Thanks for sharing your experience with this. I have read conflicting posts that a filter is needed on the lead in cable from the OTA antenna before the splitter to prevent MoCA from broadcasting? I have no idea if it does or not. I believe I will however need a PoE filter before my NBN NTD modem.

I have a separate coax wall outlet in my lounge for my NBN NTD modem with cabling from an underground pit. This is separate to the OTA antenna and cabling to the rest of the TV outlets in each room. Incidentally there is also a TV outlet in the lounge.

My current set up is coax wall to NTD Modem which is connected to a router via ethernet cable. I was hoping to connect the router to one end of the MoCA modem /adapter via ethernet and connect the MOCA modem / adapter to the TV wall outlet. I will have another MoCA modem / adapter in another room connected to my satellite node (planning to use wired ethernet backhaul with AiMesh). I am guessing it should work without a PoE filter but I will run the risk of the MoCA signal broadcasting through the antenna. However if I place a PoE filter on each of these TV outlets, the MoCA signal would be blocked? I also assume that if my TV splitter (7 way splitter) from the OTA antenna is restricted to 5-1000Mhz, MoCA may not work either?

We had a TV amplifier attached to our OTA antenna which was removed by a technician a year ago as it was causing interference and poor picture quality.

 

[degrub]

Thanks for sharing your experience with this. I have read conflicting posts that a filter is needed on the lead in cable from the OTA antenna before the splitter to prevent MoCA from broadcasting? I have no idea if it does or not. I believe I will however need a PoE filter before my NBN NTD modem.

If the coax to the NTD modem is isolated from the coax you are planning to use moca on, including any splitters, then no need for MOCA POE filter.

If the coax will share moca and DOCCIS 3.1 signals, then you will have to set the MOCA modems to use D High as MOCA 2 or 2.5 use bands that DOCCIS 3.1 may also use.

You really need to know the layout of all of the coax in your house. A sketch will help you and us greatly.

If you connect your OTA TV downlink coax to the TV port on the MOCA modem, there is no need for a POE filter and the modem is providing a splitter internally that isolates the TV bands from the MOCA bands.

If you are connecting your OTA TV downlink coax into a common splitter, then yes, put a MOCA POE filter on that downlink after your TV signal antenna amp ( Antenna --> AMP --> moca POE --> coax distribution (TV+MOCA).

I have a separate coax wall outlet in my lounge for my NBN NTD modem with cabling from an underground pit. This is separate to the OTA antenna and cabling to the rest of the TV outlets in each room. Incidentally there is also a TV outlet in the lounge.

Then it sounds like you can keep the DOCCIS 3.1 signal physically isolated from the MOCA signal. Again, you need to sketch out and identify all of the coax paths and layout, including any splitters.

My current set up is coax wall to NTD Modem which is connected to a router via ethernet cable. I was hoping to connect the router to one end of the MoCA modem /adapter via ethernet and connect the MOCA modem / adapter to the TV wall outlet. I will have another MoCA modem / adapter in another room connected to my satellite node (planning to use wired ethernet backhaul with AiMesh).

This is standard layout.

I am guessing it should work without a PoE filter but I will run the risk of the MoCA signal broadcasting through the antenna. However if I place a PoE filter on each of these TV outlets, the MoCA signal would be blocked?

No need for POE filter on each wall plate. See above.

I also assume that if my TV splitter (7 way splitter) from the OTA antenna is restricted to 5-1000Mhz, MoCA may not work either?

MOCA will NOT work with that splitter. IF you need to use MOCA through that path, get a MOCA 2.0 rated bidirectional splitter. Holland makes good ones.

We had a TV amplifier attached to our OTA antenna which was removed by a technician a year ago as it was causing interference and poor picture quality.

Sounds like too high amplified signal to the OTA receivers then. Try moca without an AMP. If the additional connections through the moca modems and any moca POE filter reduces the signal too much, then you will need a 15dB low noise TV amp as the additional connections may add 6-7 dB of loss. Look at the ChannelMaster line of mast amps.

 

[LexCaia]

Then it sounds like you can keep the DOCCIS 3.1 signal physically isolated from the MOCA signal. Again, you need to sketch out and identify all of the coax paths and layout, including any splitters.

Thanks degrub, really appreciate the detailed explanation. I will try and upload a sketch tomorrow when I get a chance (it is almost 1130pm here). I did have another question.....if I am only connecting routers to the MoCA adapter / modem to create a wired ethernet backhaul but connecting my devices via Wi-Fi to these routers, is there a risk of my internet traffic being broadcasted if I am not using the LAN ports via MoCA? This is assuming I get the right splitter MoCA bidirectional splitter. Thanks again!

 

[degrub]

You are already broadcasting across the wifi radios.
MOCA is just an ethernet lan cable.

If the cables you are using for moca directly connect to the outside world, such as with a splitter on the ISP coax ahead of the ISP modem, then you would place a moca POE filter on the upstream ISP side of that splitter to prevent the moca signal from going out on the ISP coax to the streeet. You would also place a moca POE filter on the inlet side of the ISP modem.

There are many threads here about running moca with DOCCIS3 and 3.1 ISP modems with appropriate layout sketches.

It doesn't sound like you need to be concerned with this though based on what was described.

 

[LexCaia]

You are already broadcasting across the wifi radios.
MOCA is just an ethernet lan cable.

If the cables you are using for moca directly connect to the outside world, such as with a splitter on the ISP coax ahead of the ISP modem, then you would place a moca POE filter on the moca side of that splitter to prevent the moca signal from going out on the ISP coax

ISP coax --> 1:3 splitter --> ISP modem --> router-->lan port ethernet--> moca modem 1 ethernet port
--> moca POE filter --> moca modem 1 coax in-->

I did this quick layout diagram before your message so apologies if you have already responded above. Hope the diagram attached helps explain what I am trying to do. My main aim is to create a wired ethernet backhaul using the MoCA network. This should hopefully improve the speeds of my AiMesh set up where 90% of our devices (around 35) connect wirelessly. Thanks again for all your help!

 

[degrub]

Delete the 1:2 splitter in the family room portion if using a moca modem with a TV coax out port. Actiontec 6200 moca2 modems have this port.

What we need to understand is the part in the wall, but perhaps it is simple - direct runs to 7 places from the splitter with no further splits in the wall.

If the cable from the "pit" has no connection to the 7 way splitter then the two networks will be isolated. No need for the entry POE moca filter.

You can put a moca POE filter on the coax to the antenna from the 7 way splitter. it will help keep the moca signal "clean" on the coax network. No worry about transmitting moca signal bands through the ota antennna.

Yes, you will have to replace that TV 7or 8 way splitter with a moca 2 / 2.5 certified splitter. i am surprised that you don't need amplification since it will have about 11-12 dB of loss by itself. Minimum of 2 additional connection for additional 6-7 dB of loss on the OTA signal path.

the location must be close to the broadcast antenna or you have a high gain directional antenna on the roof.

 

[LexCaia]

Delete the 1:2 splitter in the family room portion if using a moca modem with a TV coax out port. Actiontec 6200 moca2 modems have this port

Thank you for confirming, I was considering gocoax because of this feature .

What we need to understand is the part in the wall, but perhaps it is simple - direct runs to 7 places from the splitter with no further splits in the wall.

That is correct, only one 7-way splitter with no further splits in the wall. The cable from the "pit" has no connection to the 7-way splitter.

You can put a moca POE filter on the coax to the antenna from the 7 way splitter. it will help keep the moca signal "clean" on the coax network. No worry about transmitting moca signal bands through the ota antennna.

Will have challenge doing this due to the roof access....was hoping to bypass this and place filters on the relevant TV outlets themselves but I am guessing this will not work as it will prevent the two MoCA adapters / modems from "talking" to each other. Also, I will need to get the 7-way splitter upgraded which is the same challenge faced as the placement of the moca PoE filter within the roof.

Yes, you will have to replace that TV 7or 8 way splitter with a moca 2 / 2.5 certified splitter. i am surprised that you don't need amplification since it will have about 11-12 dB of loss by itself. Minimum of 2 additional connection for additional 6-7 dB of loss on the OTA signal path.

The antenna technician was also surprised as we had an amplifier which he removed due to the interference it was causing. I may look into installing a new one together with the MoCA PoE and 7-way splitter replacement. Also planning to get a quote on installing 3 data points for ethernet cabling given the challenges of laying it in my home (access, walls insulated etc.) to see if it is at all an affordable option.

Thanks again so much for your help with this! Really appreciated it

 

[degrub]

Thank you for confirming, I was considering gocoax because of this feature .


That is correct, only one 7-way splitter with no further splits in the wall. The cable from the "pit" has no connection to the 7-way splitter.


Will have challenge doing this due to the roof access....was hoping to bypass this and place filters on the relevant TV outlets themselves but I am guessing this will not work as it will prevent the two MoCA adapters / modems from "talking" to each other. Also, I will need to get the 7-way splitter upgraded which is the same challenge faced as the placement of the moca PoE filter within the roof.

just place it at the entry port on the 7 way splitter on the coax from the antenna.

The antenna technician was also surprised as we had an amplifier which he removed due to the interference it was causing. I may look into installing a new one together with the MoCA PoE and 7-way splitter replacement. Also planning to get a quote on installing 3 data points for ethernet cabling given the challenges of laying it in my home (access, walls insulated etc.) to see if it is at all an affordable option.

Thanks again so much for your help with this! Really appreciated it

i have a moca "star" layout in my house as i had RG6 from a wiring closet ( similar to your 7 way splitter) to each room. No need to run CAT5e or 6 if you have RG6 coax in the walls. you just add a moca 2/2.5 modem in each room you want to extend ethernet to once you have your base setup as proposed.

For maximum bandwidth to each room, use a point to point arrangement - one moca modem at the 7 way and one in the room desired. So it becomes # modems = 2X # rooms ( no sharing of moca coax between nodes. You need to add an 8 port Gbit/s switch at the splitter to make the ethernet connection (star layout). Uses a MOCA 2.5 modem pair for the shared home run from the 7 way to the router ( provides 940 Mbit/s bidirectional for up to Gbit/s ISP service). This does break the OTA TV connection over the coax so you have to move to TV over ethernet ( HDHomeRun digital tuner at the antenna drop coax is one option)

The lower cost option is to use shared coax with one moca modem in each room and connect through the 7 way moca coax splitter. # modems = # rooms. TV signal continues to run to each room either through the moca modem output port TV out) or by using a moca 2 way splitter/combiner if the modem does not have that port.

i have both setups for my OTA TV signal. i have the HDHomeRun in my wiring closet off at two way splitter - one leg to the HDHomeRun, one to one of the moca modem TV ports that leads to an analog TV in one room. Any device with access on my ethernet wired/wireless network can watch TV via the HDHomeRun tuner.

 

[degrub]

Is your coax RG59 or RG6 ?
MOCA 2 was designed for RG6 but will often work on RG59 ok. MOCA 2.5 may be limited due to higher frequency bands. Just have to try it. Worst case it will run at MOCA 1.0 speeds which is around 100mbits/sec half duplex if recall correctly.

Multimedia over Coax Alliance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So even with the existing splitter, you could start with just adding the modems and run at moca 1.0 speeds worst case. To get to MOCA 2 or 2.5 speeds, you will need to replace the splitter. The cabling may or may not create a limitation. Only one way to find out though. The moca modems will run at the maximum sync speed they can. The diagnostic/configuration page will show it.

 

[LexCaia]

i have both setups for my OTA TV signal. i have the HDHomeRun in my wiring closet off at two way splitter - one leg to the HDHomeRun, one to one of the moca modem TV ports that leads to an analog TV in one room. Any device with access on my ethernet wired/wireless network can watch TV via the HDHomeRun tuner.

Thank you very much for this! I don't suppose you have any diagrams handy you could share? . I would be interested to see how the set up for the point to point arrangement looks like. I am guessing I will need a power outlet in the roof for the MoCA adapter / modem. However if I were to opt for the lower cost option and had to install an amplifier, will it be as follows?
OTA Antenna----Amplifier----PoE filter-----7 way splitter

 

[degrub]

Point to point is simple. Let’s say you have 5 rooms with a coax cable direct to each from a central point. In each room you connect a moca modem to the coax. At the central point you have 5 moca modems, one connected to each cable. The ethernet port on each connects to a 8 port gigabit switch.
For the coax cable that goes to the room with the router and ISP modem, you use a moca 2.5 modem on each end. The one at the central point connects to the same switch. The one in the room with the router connects to a lan port on the router.

if you do it the other way ( and i would start the layout this way to see if you have bottlenecks) you put a moca modem in each room as above. All cables connect to the splitter. The final moca modem is in the room with the router. So no switch needed and fewer modems. Most cases will be just fine with this layout and you should start there and grow the connections as you need them. Just replace the splitter with a moca 2/2.5 compatible splitter. Moca modems have their own amplifier for the moca signal. They do not amplify the tv band signal from what i understand. If you have issues getting a strong enough TV signal to one of the rooms after all of the changes, you will need to add a low noise tv amp as close to the antenna as you can get and before the splitter, which may be in the attic.

the type of coax should be marked on the coax outer jacket. It should be either RG59 or RG6 with RG6 the better one for moca.

what coax type do you have ?