N-66U Power Output Questions

[korrakas]

Hi there SMB, new member here, been lurking for a few days here and elsewhere but registered to clarify some details that for the life of me I cant find the exact answers to.
Now this may be a slightly long and convoluted post because some of my questions are interreleated to eachother so bear with me and if anyone has any of the answers please chime in (especially Merlin, I dont even use your stuff yet but having seen what great work you do im already a fan), anyway so here goes

My situation is that I currently have a 150/10mbps fibre optic connection here in the UK coming into a flat of 3 students (me and two others) in North London. The router that came with the internet package seemed a decent piece of kit (gave me 160/10mbps via wireless connection once it was set up in the same room) but the problem is the wireless range was very poor to nonexistent in the rest of the house. The house is quite small (could say very small) and mostly underground flat with rectanuglar shape, with the living room/converted bedroom on one end to the right of me, my bedroom in the middle (where the router was located for full coverage) and a set of internal wooden stairs that lead to the other bedroom that is on ground level on the left of me.
The living room kinda got some reception but speeds were around 10mbps on 2.4G (we only have 2 laptops that have 5G capabilities out of our 10 devices in the house so we dont really use the 5G, plus it has even worse reception) and the upper room devices struggled to connect but got similar speeds or less. After trying all the standard tricks like 20mhz only on the 2.4 band, using InSSIDer to scan the srrounding area for channel interference (we have alot of other routers unfortunately as we live in a 5 flat terraced building with other flats around us) and locking the router to the least busy channel, repositioning angle of the router, upgrading firmware etc but none or minimal improvment.
As such I decided to upgrade to a better quality dedicated wireless router. I looked through reviews etc and decided to buy an ASUS N56U and hooked it up as a wireless router via modem mode, but alas, again no improvment. Its an excellent piece of kit, set up really easily, upgraded to latest firmware from ASUS website, factory resets and clearing nvram, repositing the router angle to avoid deadspots, the works, I still get excellent wireless speeds in my room (160mbps) and outside my bedroom door on the stairs I get about 80mbps on the 5G band but reach the top of the stairs and into the bedroom (5 meters further away) and reception suffers and hits about 8-10mbps, there have been moments where my friends laptop in his room has connected and reached 30mbps down but the connection is very shaky and drops and speeds vary wildly, the living room speeds are as poor as before.

Now before people suggest the following solutions, they are unfortunately unfeasible or I am aware of them but dont want to try them just yet

• Moving the router to another room
• Running ethernet cables to our devices
• setting up wireless repeaters/AP
• Use powerline adapters

Instead what I have decided to do after researching even more and using the router ranker etc is decided upon the N66U instead as it is the highest ranked router for wireless range in the SMB rankings, especially for hard to reach spots like the deadspot F used during reviews and as I suspect what is happening in my situation is the signal is being severly attenuated by the basement walls (although when the house was converted it didnt even have sound proofing installed, we get noise complaints from above for the slightest sound, go figure) I think the basement walls themselves must be quite thick (possibly brick or cement judging from an unpainted storage room we have access to) and at this junction is where my questions come in.

Now I am aware that when the N66U was reviewed in 2012 its incredibly range was due to its power output being very high (500mW for the US I think ? and 200mW for GB). I am also aware that after its release new FCC legislation came in that deemed such poower outputs illegal and ASUS patched its N66Us to a new output of 80mW or 100mW??? if I am correct, and since then the N66Us tremendous range capabilites have been somewhat diminished, although it is still incredibly capable (please correct me if Im wrong so far, until a few weeks ago I knew almost nothing about routers although I am a bit of a computer hardware geek otherwise). It is also my understanding that ASUS moved from SDK5 to SDK6 in its firmware at some point in time, I am not sure if this is the same point where the power output was patched or if this is the same thing or if they are even related, but from what Ive read the switch from SDK5 to SDK6 also introduced some range issues. Now my questions are as follows

• Is it still possible to have the router transmit its old power levels by downgrading to the most recent firmware before the power output was patched, and if yes, which is this firmware revision ?
• I have read that since the power change, Merlin has refused on legal grounds/cannot due to ASUS encrypting the wireless drivers to change the power output back to its original levels, which I completely understand and respect, however it is also my understanding that ASUS provided him with an engineering mode wireless driver to incorporate into his custom firmware, is the performance of the em driver equivalent to the pre-patched power output in current firmware ? Is it the em driver the actual pre patched power output ? How does this work ?
• I have read something about since the power patching happened for the US the power output for other locales has been broken in the firmware, (e.g from what I understand the UK still has a 200mW limit but the N66U does not operate at that level), is this still broken or will I be able to utilise the correct power output for my locale ? Ideally I would like the full 500mW output even if it limits my channels to US levels, but I would atleast settle for the GB output levels
• What is the current performance of the stock firmware in terms of wireless range ? Is it still diminished ? Good ?

Essentially my overall question is, what is the best optimal firmware/settings etc to squeeze every last bit of wireless range and performance from an N66U and is it possible to achieve its range capabilities as they were at release (because they are adequate for my needs I think) or is there no way to go back to those levels of power ? The 3 of us really arent interested or need any other features except stable downspeeds of around 40-50% of the speeds we are paying ATLEAST or otherwise the other two housemates feel rightfully short-changed, so I do not care about FTP, VPN etc etc, I would hoever like working a QoS to distribute the badwidth between our devices fairly as we will be torrenting and also have an xbox etc. I also do not particularly care if I have to use an older firmware with security vulnerabilites (I understand people may disagree with me on this) aslong as I can get the best performance out of the N66U.

Also to premept any of the following suggestions or corrections, I am aware of them but id just like my specific questions answered, forgive my stubbonrness . I understand my logic may be wrong and I am happy to be corrected, but I would really like the answers to my questions first and then constructive advice secondary as it is always welcome

• I understand power output does not translate to linear increase in range aka doubling power only makes a few dBm difference etc
• I understand transmission power is only one side of the equation and the client side must be equally able to communciate with the router for a fast stable connection (in the room with the worst signal we have a high gain USB wireless dongle that still gets pitiful speeds so I doubt client side is the issue)
• I understand it may cause interference with neighbours wifi if I blast a very powerful signal from my router, I will keep that in mind
• I understand very high power may introduce distortions into the signal without providing any benefits in range
• I do not want to try replacing the N66U external antennas with high gain external antennas

Well I guess thats everything, sorry for writing such a huge essay or if mods feel I went off on a tangent, they can clear the rest of the post and just leave the questions if that is the case, I just thought id give a bit of context and background to my questions and why I need every last bit of power and range I can get, and a big thank you to anyone that takes the time to read this and give me any of the info Im looking for

 

[wouterv]

Did I miss at what firmware your router is running?
A Wireless network is intended for relatively short distances.
Due to radio signals nature the range depends on the postioning of the router/antennas and clients and the environment, in a steel armoured concrete building the range will be less then in a wooden home.
2.4 GHz usually covers an average two story home and is vulnerable for neighbor disturbance, 5 GHz usually covers one room.
Many answers you gave allready by yourself.
The very best network connection is wired.
To expand the wireless range the options are:

• A wireless Access Point, wired to the main router.
• A wireless Repeater (will half the throughput).
• Power Line adapters, with or without a build-in Wireless Access Point.

 

[sinshiva]

I feel that the best solution to attempt might be to try mounting the n66u on the perimeter wall next to the staircase to try and coax a decent spread of the signal. this would hopefully be the most effective placement with the least amount of additional wiring involved. additionally, it would be to everyone's benefit if you could use the wireless from the isp's modem/router on another channel, within your own room, etc.

i would not expect to make any headway playing with firmwares as far as wireless signal is concerned.

it would probably be in everyone's best interests, particularly considering that my idea involves continuing to use the ISP's modem/router as your primary router, to not get hung up on QoS and to instead limit (most importantly; like, at most 1/6th per person of your up bandwidth) up and down torrent bandwidth on the clients themselves. you really need a more powerful router to do QoS properly with the bandwidth yall are getting, anyway.

if this doesn't pan out, i'd expect needing to run a wire for the n66u to the lower level and something like the n56u to the other bedroom, leaving you with the primary router as an AP in your room

 

[korrakas]

Did I miss at what firmware your router is running?
A Wireless network is intended for relatively short distances.
Due to radio signals nature the range depends on the postioning of the router/antennas and clients and the environment, in a steel armoured concrete building the range will be less then in a wooden home.
2.4 GHz usually covers an average two story home and is vulnerable for neighbor disturbance, 5 GHz usually covers one room.
Many answers you gave allready by yourself.
The very best network connection is wired.
To expand the wireless range the options are:

• A wireless Access Point, wired to the main router.
• A wireless Repeater (will half the throughput).
• Power Line adapters, with or without a build-in Wireless Access Point.

Yep aware of all that, the ranges we are talking about are very short, its a small flat with all but one of the rooms on the same level, the whole flat is just 3 rooms and a bathroom. I dont think its a steel clad building with concrete, Im just assuming the walls may be concrete but probably brick looking at them and knowing english buildings.
The N56 is running latest asus firmware from the website, cant rememeber the exact revision off the top of my head

 

[korrakas]

I feel that the best solution to attempt might be to try mounting the n66u on the perimeter wall next to the staircase to try and coax a decent spread of the signal. this would hopefully be the most effective placement with the least amount of additional wiring involved. additionally, it would be to everyone's benefit if you could use the wireless from the isp's modem/router on another channel, within your own room, etc.

i would not expect to make any headway playing with firmwares as far as wireless signal is concerned.

it would probably be in everyone's best interests, particularly considering that my idea involves continuing to use the ISP's modem/router as your primary router, to not get hung up on QoS and to instead limit (most importantly; like, at most 1/6th per person of your up bandwidth) up and down torrent bandwidth on the clients themselves. you really need a more powerful router to do QoS properly with the bandwidth yall are getting, anyway.

if this doesn't pan out, i'd expect needing to run a wire for the n66u to the lower level and something like the n56u to the other bedroom, leaving you with the primary router as an AP in your room

Thats probably gonna be a really unlikely plan unfortunately, router wise we are limited to only having a router in my bedroom as thats where the fibre optic cable comes into the house and I dont want to be running cables underneath doors or through walls etc. If nothing works I will probably end up using powerline adaptors into the other two rooms but atm I am convinced that a single router will do the job given it is powerful enough, after all other people are covering whole town houses and gardens. This is a really small flat (we are students after all) and a single wireless router should reliably cover it, there are free channels around us as most of the other routers tend to all bunch up on one or two channels for some reason so I dont think interference is the problem. Im just looking to see if I can still get the performance from the N66U that I need power and range wise

 

[RMerlin]

Since you already have two routers, one thing you could do is use the N56 as the main router, but disable its wifi. Right next to it, plug the N66 with a short Ethernet cable, running an older (with better range but weaker security), configured as an AP.

That way, the security issues of the older N66U firmware won't be a problem, since that router will be firewalled by your main router.

 

[jim769]

Did I miss at what firmware your router is running?
A Wireless network is intended for relatively short distances.
Due to radio signals nature the range depends on the postioning of the router/antennas and clients and the environment, in a steel armoured concrete building the range will be less then in a wooden home.
2.4 GHz usually covers an average two story home and is vulnerable for neighbor disturbance, 5 GHz usually covers one room.
Many answers you gave allready by yourself.
The very best network connection is wired.
To expand the wireless range the options are:

• A wireless Access Point, wired to the main router.
• A wireless Repeater (will half the throughput).
• Power Line adapters, with or without a build-in Wireless Access Point.

5 Ghz only covers one room ?? Not sure what router your using my 68U covers my whole 1800 square foot house using 5Ghz here with no problems or drop in connectivity or connection speed. What point would there be to having wireless AC only on the 5 Ghz band if it only covered one room.

 

[korrakas]

Since you already have two routers, one thing you could do is use the N56 as the main router, but disable its wifi. Right next to it, plug the N66 with a short Ethernet cable, running an older (with better range but weaker security), configured as an AP.

That way, the security issues of the older N66U firmware won't be a problem, since that router will be firewalled by your main router.

Thats a really awesome idea Merlin except I will probably be returning the N56U to purchase the N66U

A few other questions if you have the time and can answer

• Which is the last firmware revision before the power was patched ? And where can I find it ?
• How is your custom firmware compared to the pre-patched firmware performance ? How does the em driver you were given by ASUS perform ?
• Whats the difference between your SDK5 builds and your most recent firmware builds in terms of wireless range and performance ?
• In general which firmware would you recommend for the best wireless range and performance ? Wether one of your custom ones or an old ASUS firmware ?

 

[korrakas]

5 Ghz only covers one room ?? Not sure what router your using my 68U covers my whole 1800 square foot house using 5Ghz here with no problems or drop in connectivity or connection speed. What point would there be to having wireless AC only on the 5 Ghz band if it only covered one room.

I know, that's why it sucks, I get 5G in my room and in a small area outside my bedroom, but with very poor speeds, and that's results from two different routers

 

[RMerlin]

Thats a really awesome idea Merlin except I will probably be returning the N56U to purchase the N66U

A few other questions if you have the time and can answer

[*]Which is the last firmware revision before the power was patched ? And where can I find it ?

I've always gotten conflicting reports there, that's part of why I stopped caring about it. Some people swear that performance dropped after 270.26, others say it dropped only after the last sdk5 build, others said it dropped with 376.41, others 376.42... You get the idea.

So which it is? If you ask 10 different persons, you'll probably get 10 different answers.

[*]How is your custom firmware compared to the pre-patched firmware performance ? How does the em driver you were given by ASUS perform ?

That's another piece of the puzzle. Months after people said they were getting awesome performance with that driver, I discovered that... that driver was never even included on my Github repo. And I no longer have any other copy of it, and the person who sent it to me no longer works in the wireless router department. So... <shrug>

[*]Whats the difference between your SDK5 builds and your most recent firmware builds in terms of wireless range and performance ?

See first reply. Everyone is reporting different results.

[*]In general which firmware would you recommend for the best wireless range and performance ? Wether one of your custom ones or an old ASUS firmware ?

Since I haven't used the N66 as a primary router in over 2 years, I wouldn't know for sure. Safest bet would probably be 374.35-sdk5. But I would advise against running that on a primary router.

 

[korrakas]

I've always gotten conflicting reports there, that's part of why I stopped caring about it. Some people swear that performance dropped after 270.26, others say it dropped only after the last sdk5 build, others said it dropped with 376.41, others 376.42... You get the idea.

So which it is? If you ask 10 different persons, you'll probably get 10 different answers.



That's another piece of the puzzle. Months after people said they were getting awesome performance with that driver, I discovered that... that driver was never even included on my Github repo. And I no longer have any other copy of it, and the person who sent it to me no longer works in the wireless router department. So... <shrug>



See first reply. Everyone is reporting different results.



Since I haven't used the N66 as a primary router in over 2 years, I wouldn't know for sure. Safest bet would probably be 374.35-sdk5. But I would advise against running that on a primary router.

Hahahahaah wow...so the situation is even more FUBAR than I realised, damn. Still your answers have been incredibly enlightening, atleast now I know where I stand. So just so I can get this straight once and for all

The em driver you're supposed to have had in your custom firmware (and those special em builds you have in a seperate folder) DONT actually contain any special engineering mode driver ? do you just have the stock wireless driver taken from ASUS firmware ?

Also just to make clear, seeing as we dont really know which stock firmware patched the power output, which was the last stock firmware on SDK5 ? and where can I find the older firmwares ? Is there some sort of repositry ? (ASUS has deleted alot of old firmwares from the website)

And finally, except for the security vulnerabilties, is there anything else majorly not working in the 374.35 SDK5 custom firmware of yours ? Or is it feasible to use it as a daily driver

Really really thanks for all the help man

P.S Do you have any idea what the situation with different locales and power outputs on the N66 is ? Will I be able to get correct power output for UK regulations if my router is in GB locale ? or is it broken ?

 

[RMerlin]

The em driver you're supposed to have had in your custom firmware (and those special em builds you have in a seperate folder) DONT actually contain any special engineering mode driver ? do you just have the stock wireless driver taken from ASUS firmware ?

The driver comes directly from their GPL releases.

Also just to make clear, seeing as we dont really know which stock firmware patched the power output, which was the last stock firmware on SDK5 ? and where can I find the older firmwares ? Is there some sort of repositry ? (ASUS has deleted alot of old firmwares from the website)

The last SDK5 relases from Asus were based on 5.110, which was broken with some wireless client manufacturers. I don't remember what was the last 5.100 build, but it must go back before 374.270 (which you should not run on a recent RT-N66U, as it does not support the flash type used by newer revisions).

And finally, except for the security vulnerabilties, is there anything else majorly not working in the 374.35 SDK5 custom firmware of yours ? Or is it feasible to use it as a daily driver

I fixed tons of things between 374.35 and 376.47 (and so did Asus) - far too much for me to remember even half of them. You will have to dig through the changelog for the details.

P.S Do you have any idea what the situation with different locales and power outputs on the N66 is ? Will I be able to get correct power output for UK regulations if my router is in GB locale ? or is it broken ?

No idea, I don't really follow which region allows what in terms of output power.

 

[wouterv]

5 Ghz only covers one room ?? Not sure what router your using my 68U covers my whole 1800 square foot house using 5Ghz here with no problems or drop in connectivity or connection speed. What point would there be to having wireless AC only on the 5 Ghz band if it only covered one room.

My router is a RT-N66U and the house is combined brick with steel armoured concrete floors.
My experience is that 5 GHz does not really well goes through the concrete floors, by that limiting the range to one floor, if there where concrete walls, it would really span only one room.
2.4 GHz does cover all three floors, with 802.11n the best.

To jump into the firmware discussion: .270 was great, followed by some versions that caused connection issues on 5 GHz. Once those 5 GHz issues were solved I had no more issues and the router is happy with the latest stock version.
Router versus client positioning are most important, and the climate seems to play a role too: nice dry summer days give a better range than rainy days.
Base case for me is still that wireless networks are for relative short distances only, you shall not expect that ONE router can allways cover one house, all depending on the local situation.