NETGEAR "Stealthily" Releases the Nighthawk X6S R7960P

[kc6108]

@e38BimmerFN

FYI, we have two Nintendo 2DS's, two Nintendo 3DS's, two Nintendo Switch's, a Nintendo Wii, a Nintendo Wii U, three Xbox 360's, an Xbox One S, an Xbox One X, and two PS3's in our household. All of them are Open NAT or NAT type A (Nintendo Switches). My kids play Black Ops 1, 2, and 3 together (amongst themselves via Xbox Live), amongst themselves with friends outside the home (via Xbox Live), and mostly alone with friends outside the home via Xbox Live.

My old routers (Linksys E4200, SRX5308, etc) couldn't handle it (consistently provide Open NAT). My Netgear R8500 (now used as an access point) and R9000 can. I have gone through great pains to ensure their gameplay is optimal. Everything from getting rid of AT&T (their equipment only allowed IP-passthrough, which doesn't truly put the equipment in modem only or bridge mode), getting Cable ONE's GigaONE gigabit Internet, purchasing a Motorola MB8600 DOCSIS 3.1 cable modem to take advantage of DOCSIS-PIE on the uplink (Cable ONE intentionally leaves it activated in the router although they haven't upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 yet), purchasing the R9000 to easily handle the LAN-WAN-LAN load, to replacing my GS724Tv4 (the main switch located in my utility room where all the Cat5e/Cat6 cables in my house terminates) with a GS728TX so the R9000 and it could be connected via an SFP+ DAC cable @ 10 Gbps.

What I am getting at is that my kids have always let me know when "there are problems with the Internet" lol. They even went so far as to tell me they wanted me to upgrade our network with an emphasis in gaming (reducing latency/ping, Open NAT, etc) for Xmas last year

They haven't had any issues in almost a year. First by getting the R8500 and pairing it with the GS724Tv4... and now with the "upgraded network" (R9000 and GS728TX).

I wonder why they haven't run into any issues playing the same game, on the same gaming platform, on the same network via Xbox Live? Same goes for the PS3's and playing with each other and friends on the Playstation Network at the same time. I'm not complaining, nor questioning the logic behind the "Full Cone NAT" subject. You, and others, have obviously put a lot of work into it.

Take care...

 

[coxhaus]

kc6108 are you running in layer 3 mode on your switch? I would think that would give you the best LAN performance. You can tell by doing a traceroute out. Your first hop will be your layer 3 switch.

 

[Gitsum]

Sounds like the XR700 would be a good router with all that gaming goin on.

 

[avtella]

Meh a standard router is fine even for gamers, I feel a lot of the gaming stuff is just hyped up for high markups. Yeah you get some gains in latency maybe if properly set but it's not like you can't live without them. People were doing fine even before they existed, even the competitive ones and pros.

 

[kc6108]

kc6108 are you running in layer 3 mode on your switch? I would think that would give you the best LAN performance. You can tell by doing a traceroute out. Your first hop will be your layer 3 switch.

The S3300 series aren't layer 3 switches, but they do support VLAN routing (static routing only, no dynamic routing), ACLs, etc.

I only use one VLAN. I had to create it so I could turn on "IP Routing" in the switch. Netgear doesn't allow routing on the Management interface.

Also, since I'm not crossing VLANs when doing a traceroute the first hop is my router, not my switch. I just created a second VLAN to re-test this scenario, and the switch showed up first.

From Netgear's S3300 website:

Static Routing
A simple way to provide segmentation of the network with internal routing through the switch – reserving the router for external traffic routing only, making the entire network more efficient.

 

[jsmiddleton4]

A little confused. The x6s is on Amazon. Nothing exclusive to Costco. And the next model up, the x8s for lack of a better title, is just a few dollars more.

 

[kc6108]

A little confused. The x6s is on Amazon. Nothing exclusive to Costco. And the next model up, the x8s for lack of a better title, is just a few dollars more.

I'm not seeing the R7960P X6S on Amazon, nor an X8S. At any rate, the new X6S sports features the R8000P doesn't (i.e. WAN aggregation for multi-gig Internet, Circle, Dynamic QoS, etc).

The only thing I can find that the R8000P has over the R7960P is:

AC3600 (600+1300+1625Mbps) versus AC4000 (750+1625+1625Mbps)​

Costco is selling the R7960P for $199
Amazon is selling the R8000P for $279 ($20 off MSRP)

 

[kc6108]

@coxhaus

Am I on the right track re your layer 3 question? I'm far from being a Networking expert. I welcome any suggestions. Links, walkthroughs, and step-by-step instructions are most welcome, lol

 

[coxhaus]

You are doing great, good answer.

 

[e38BimmerFN]

The main issue that I found to be is that having two or more gaming devices online playing online multiplayter games, mostly CoD, is where we see NAT issues. Long and detailed testing and proved that FULL CONE NAT seems to be the best for only these environments and configurations.

Yes mostly people with single game device environments will not see this as they will keep the NAT Filter set to SECURE and this is recommended. This will not post a problem for this configuration. OPEN NAT will be seeing in game.

Long testing and experience has proved that with two or more consoles playing the same game, CoD online match making, is where Secure poses a problem for some. I've just found the prefered setting for users with NG routers to help get OPEN NAT across the board using NG routers. Asus seems to work differently however if used with Merlins FW, this seems to help this as well on that Mfr router brand. D-Link used to allow FULL CONE however stopped supporting full cone all together on there routers. I've also tested Linksys and TP-Link, these only support Port Address Restricted NAT. We could not get a 2nd game console to get OPEN nat in game when these brand routers were used.

Having NG routers giving the ability to allow users to set NAT filter to OPEN allows the devices and games to achieve OPEN NAT instead of one console being OPEN and another being Moderate NAT while in game. Again, this is in game NAT status that we are trying to get for all gamers when playing the same time. So yes, you can OPEN NAT on all game devices (network dashbaord), however in game, only 1 will be OPEN and others will probably be Moderate, or Strict, depending.

So If you get two or three consoles online. What do you see for the in game NAT status when playing BO3 in a match making lobby? I always found that my 2nd console would always get Moderate NAT until I changed the Nat Filter from Secure to Open.

Also the initial xbox NAT status was fixed about two years ago when MS recognized the need for good NAT status with households with two or more game consoles connected under one network. So the xbox nat status should be OPEN for all at this point. It's the game is where we encounter problems.

NAT Filter set to OPEN helps this. Tried and tested true since.

Were just seeing that some NG model routers may have new behavior when it comes to NAT Filter set to open. It's supposed to be FULL CONE and not Port Address Restricted.

I have asked NetGear Guy to look into this.

Looks like I need to run some testing on more recent FW versions since last testing it was working.

@e38BimmerFN

FYI, we have two Nintendo 2DS's, two Nintendo 3DS's, two Nintendo Switch's, a Nintendo Wii, a Nintendo Wii U, three Xbox 360's, an Xbox One S, an Xbox One X, and two PS3's in our household. All of them are Open NAT or NAT type A (Nintendo Switches). My kids play Black Ops 1, 2, and 3 together (amongst themselves via Xbox Live), amongst themselves with friends outside the home (via Xbox Live), and mostly alone with friends outside the home via Xbox Live.

My old routers (Linksys E4200, SRX5308, etc) couldn't handle it (consistently provide Open NAT). My Netgear R8500 (now used as an access point) and R9000 can. I have gone through great pains to ensure their gameplay is optimal. Everything from getting rid of AT&T (their equipment only allowed IP-passthrough, which doesn't truly put the equipment in modem only or bridge mode), getting Cable ONE's GigaONE gigabit Internet, purchasing a Motorola MB8600 DOCSIS 3.1 cable modem to take advantage of DOCSIS-PIE on the uplink (Cable ONE intentionally leaves it activated in the router although they haven't upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 yet), purchasing the R9000 to easily handle the LAN-WAN-LAN load, to replacing my GS724Tv4 (the main switch located in my utility room where all the Cat5e/Cat6 cables in my house terminates) with a GS728TX so the R9000 and it could be connected via an SFP+ DAC cable @ 10 Gbps.

What I am getting at is that my kids have always let me know when "there are problems with the Internet" lol. They even went so far as to tell me they wanted me to upgrade our network with an emphasis in gaming (reducing latency/ping, Open NAT, etc) for Xmas last year

They haven't had any issues in almost a year. First by getting the R8500 and pairing it with the GS724Tv4... and now with the "upgraded network" (R9000 and GS728TX).

I wonder why they haven't run into any issues playing the same game, on the same gaming platform, on the same network via Xbox Live? Same goes for the PS3's and playing with each other and friends on the Playstation Network at the same time. I'm not complaining, nor questioning the logic behind the "Full Cone NAT" subject. You, and others, have obviously put a lot of work into it.

Take care...

 

[L&LD]

The main issue that I found to be is that having two or more gaming devices online playing online multiplayter games, mostly CoD, is where we see NAT issues. Long and detailed testing and proved that FULL CONE NAT seems to be the best for only these environments and configurations.

Yes mostly people with single game device environments will not see this as they will keep the NAT Filter set to SECURE and this is recommended. This will not post a problem for this configuration. OPEN NAT will be seeing in game.

Long testing and experience has proved that with two or more consoles playing the same game, CoD online match making, is where Secure poses a problem for some. I've just found the prefered setting for users with NG routers to help get OPEN NAT across the board using NG routers. Asus seems to work differently however if used with Merlins FW, this seems to help this as well on that Mfr router brand. D-Link used to allow FULL CONE however stopped supporting full cone all together on there routers. I've also tested Linksys and TP-Link, these only support Port Address Restricted NAT. We could not get a 2nd game console to get OPEN nat in game when these brand routers were used.

Having NG routers giving the ability to allow users to set NAT filter to OPEN allows the devices and games to achieve OPEN NAT instead of one console being OPEN and another being Moderate NAT while in game. Again, this is in game NAT status that we are trying to get for all gamers when playing the same time. So yes, you can OPEN NAT on all game devices (network dashbaord), however in game, only 1 will be OPEN and others will probably be Moderate, or Strict, depending.

So If you get two or three consoles online. What do you see for the in game NAT status when playing BO3 in a match making lobby? I always found that my 2nd console would always get Moderate NAT until I changed the Nat Filter from Secure to Open.

Also the initial xbox NAT status was fixed about two years ago when MS recognized the need for good NAT status with households with two or more game consoles connected under one network. So the xbox nat status should be OPEN for all at this point. It's the game is where we encounter problems.

NAT Filter set to OPEN helps this. Tried and tested true since.

Were just seeing that some NG model routers may have new behavior when it comes to NAT Filter set to open. It's supposed to be FULL CONE and not Port Address Restricted.

I have asked NetGear Guy to look into this.

Looks like I need to run some testing on more recent FW versions since last testing it was working.

What issues are 'solved' by having OPEN NAT vs. Moderate NAT or Strict? Are there any symptoms or other negatives for the player(s) if not in OPEN NAT mode? Thanks, just trying to expand my knowledge.

 

[e38BimmerFN]

Can be some connectivity, chat and some gaming performance problems seen with having other than OPEN NAT while in game.

 

[kc6108]

@e38BimmerFN

I will try to make a long story short...

My buddies, our kids, and their friends all get together for game night a few times a year.

The Xbox 360 supported direct LAN connections (I forget the exact term ATM), but the Xbox One changed things up when Microsoft started requiring Xbox Live (to promote Gold of course).

When that happened there were no consumer routers that could handle the load during game night. The main reason was due to us hitting the max number of UPnP entries (usually ~40 max limit as with my R8500) hardcoded in the firmware.

That's when we started using an SRX5308 and a GS724Tv4. The SRX could handle over 100 UPnP entries, and the switch supported IP routing (layer 3).

Two things changed that made this configuration stop working for us. First, the SRX hit EOL in 2017; although we continued to use it for another year. Second, UPnP in it stopped working. Updates to some of the games and/or consoles caused it. Maybe UPnP in the router simply needed updated, but that wasn't happening.

It took a while for us to find another working router/switch combo... the R9000 and GS728TX. The R9000 supports 100 UPnP entries and the GS728TX supports IP routing (layer 3). The only real reason for the switch upgrade was SFP+ to SFP+ connectivity via a cheap $15 DAC cable. When you have a dozen or so consoles and another 5 to 10 PCs all connected to the same network, actively playing games, performing updates, etc. the extra bandwidth proved helpful.

So, I have personally had over 10 Xbox One's AND several PCs all playing the same COD games (I, II, III, etc.) at the same time... with chat, etc. all working. All consoles showed Open NAT, both in Network settings and in game... in two different setups.

Although I'm a software engineer by trade (though I haven't coded professionally in years), I really have to give credit to a couple of my buddies who are networking gurus for getting everything to play (pun intended) nicely together.

There are pro gamers out there that play together all the time. Yeah, mostly on their own network or with their own static public IP, but Netgear did make the XR700 and SX10 to combat this very situation that you and I both found ourselves in. It may be tough to achieve, but it has to be possible one way or another.

Personally, I wouldn't touch the XR700 and SX10 with a 10 foot pole... and I seriously doubt they would work for what we are talking about... though in theory (or in Netgear's and Netduma's dreams) they should.

 

[kc6108]

FYI, I'm not a gamer. I haven't play a game since God of War 2 on the PS3. So it's probably been around 10 years. My 12 year old twin boys OTOH love to game, lol.

Also, we got the R9000 for $200 from an unhappy customer and the GS728TX for $175 from a church that ended out not needing it

 

[e38BimmerFN]

Well sounds like your not really effected. There are many configurations where this does effect multiple configurations. Mostly only multi-player CoD games. This does effect others and now we are seeing this NAT issue with the NAT filter. I'm sure it will be looked into.

Enjoy yours though.

 

[kc6108]

Well sounds like your not really effected. There are many configurations where this does effect multiple configurations. This does effect others and now we are seeing this NAT issue with the NAT filter. I'm sure it will be looked into.

Enjoy yours though.

Getting everything to finally work again was a huge pain in the arse. My kids are finally happy again, so so am I!

The main purpose of my post was to provide you with as much info on my network as I could muster... in the hopes it would provide you with some new insights into the matter.

I know my buddies consulted with Netgear on our setup, goals, and budget. It took a week or so, but Netgear came back with some advice on what changes to make. That's how we arrived at the R9000 and GS724Tv4 (or GS728TX). I personally found it interesting that the XR500/700 and SX10 weren't on the list of suggestions. Thus my statement to steer clear from them. But to be fair, the R9000 had its fair share of issues which prevented it from working in our environment just six months ago.

 

[e38BimmerFN]

Each has had it's own issues. They all do seems like.
Did the R9000 ever get QoS or Advanced QoS UI? I know that was a bit thing when it first came out. I demo'd the R9000 at first. Nice and all. Too much for what I do.

 

[coxhaus]

For LAN gaming you can't be a layer 3 switch. Switches are faster than routers.

 

[kc6108]

Each has had it's own issues. They all do seems like.
Did the R9000 ever get QoS or Advanced QoS UI? I know that was a bit thing when it first came out. I demo'd the R9000 at first. Nice and all. Too much for what I do.

Funny you should ask

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Ni...-Dynamic-Qos-StreamBoost-or-iQoS/td-p/1702431

The QoS implementation in the R9000 is unique. Since the main CPU was neither Qualcomm or Broadcom, Netgear chose to go with Trend Micro.

After I read a post regarding the RAX120 having a rudimentary implementation of QoS, I took a quick glance at the its source code. The code was from a couple firmware releases back, but it looked like there were several flavors of QoS/AQM/SQM compiled in. Everything from qos-scripts to fq_codel. It didn't look like QoS was fully implemented yet, but something was inside their latest firmware release for sure:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Ni...d-AX12-RAX200/m-p/1733277/highlight/true#M720

-kc6108

 

[kc6108]

I did that research because, like lots of other folks, I have been trying to combat bufferbloat for about a year now. This was mainly due to hosting Game Nights with crappy DSL Internet.

Now that I have switched to Cable ONE (onto their GigaONE gigabit Internet plan) bufferbloat is no longer an issue at my place. Read my second post re DOCSIS 3.0 & DOCSIS-PIE...

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32338984-Cable-ONE-Motorola-MB8600-Firmware-Update-8600-18-2-12

I soon realized being in one of the last communities to get upgraded infrastructure (although only to DOCSIS 3.0) has been a good thing. The tech (20+ year veteran) that came to install my service said Cable ONE had installed top of the line infrastructure in my area. Mainly due to the cost of newer infrastructure has come down so drastically over the past two years. He specifically stated that there is something to be said for having a top notch DOCSIS 3.0 implementation, especially when you're on their GigaONE plan.

I really enjoy installs like this... when you get a really knowledgeable tech that loves his work... and most importantly... is a talker, lol!