NETGEAR "Stealthily" Releases the Nighthawk X6S R7960P

[e38BimmerFN]

Streamboost by Qualcomm is horrendous IMO. QC really did a bad number with D-Links DGL-5500 years ago. Had such high hopes for the follow on DGL router since the DGL-4500 was a great router for gaming. What a mess the 5500 was. They never got it working well. QC dropped the ball big time for D-Link. Not a FAN of QC anymore.

Glad that NG is using something different. Sounds like TrendMicro is working well then.

Seems that NG always implements basic QoS at first then finally puts out more advanced features. Hopefully the RAX will get the same implementation as the R9000.

Funny you should ask

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Ni...-Dynamic-Qos-StreamBoost-or-iQoS/td-p/1702431

The QoS implementation in the R9000 is unique. Since the main CPU was neither Qualcomm or Broadcom, Netgear chose to go with Trend Micro.

After I read a post regarding the RAX120 having a rudimentary implementation of QoS, I took a quick glance at the its source code. The code was from a couple firmware releases back, but it looked like there were several flavors of QoS/AQM/SQM compiled in. Everything from QoS-scripts to fq_codel. It didn't look like QoS was fully implemented yet, but it was with their latest firmware release for sure I know.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Ni...d-AX12-RAX200/m-p/1733277/highlight/true#M720

-kc6108

 

[kc6108]

Seems that NG always implements basic QoS at first then finally puts out more advanced features.

Agreed. I think Netgear either starts out with no QoS at all (i.e. R9000) or something basic to ensure they get to add it to the features list.

Hopefully the RAX will get the same implementation as the R9000.

I'm torn on this one. TM/R9000 has the best Dynamic QoS implementation I've ever used, but I've heard great things about sqm-scripts, qos-scripts, fq_codel, etc. Supposedly they are the best in the business.

What I'm noticing with TM is that Netgear at least has the option to use some of their knobs (i.e. device/application type recognition as in Android vs iPhone vs Smart TV, etc, etc). Also, their signatures to identify device/application types are updated regularly.

OTOH, I'm sure OpenWrt's latest QoS/SQM/AQM flavors do something very similar... and are better at it.

The best thing of all is that Netgear just has to implement these technologies. A simple, but accurate, speedtest and routine updates (from TM or Git) are all that's really necessary to configure and keep them working in tiptop shape.

Unfortunately, this post is full of MY opinions... I am far from a Networking/QoS expert. To be quite honest, I know just enough to be dangerous, lol!

Take care, -kc6108

 

[e38BimmerFN]

Ya heard that OpenWRTs flavours are the best. Seen more posts about FQ_Codel and good things.

Enjoy.

 

[jsmiddleton4]

Looking right at the X6S on Amazon for 249. Again not all that stealthy of a release.

 

[kc6108]

Looking right at the X6S on Amazon for 249. Again not all that stealthy of a release.

I can't find the new X6S (R7960P) on Amazon. I did see the old X6S (R8000P) is there for $249.

 

[Internet Man]

Looking right at the X6S on Amazon for 249. Again not all that stealthy of a release.

Netgear made software changes to the R8000P model (AC4000) which is marketed as the Nighthawk X6S and released it with the model number R7960P (AC3600) under the same marketing name of X6S for sale exclusively at Costco. They had done this previously for the R7900P model (AC3000) which was also marketed as the Nighthawk X6S.

They probably feel that the AC3000 was too much of a nerf from the AC4000 and they might even hope to trick some people into upgrading from the R7900P to the R7960P.

https://wikidevi.com/wiki/List_of_Costco_Exclusive_Wireless_Devices

 

[jsmiddleton4]

The hardware platform is the same. “Stealthy” is not accurate.

Lots of this kind of thing at Costco for all kinds of products like bluray players.

Not getting one but they’ve easily found and no ninja skills required to obtain one.

 

[e38BimmerFN]

I think what KC meant by "stealthy" was that the R7960P didn't get much fan fair party for it's announcement release like the XR or RAX routers do.

 

[ClockerXP]

I have one of thes R7960P routers. I was a beta tester for it in the winter. I would love to use it again but I need all the features I have in the Merlin firmware with my Asus RT-AC68U. Any idea if this router may get some Merlin love? Specifically I need good OpenVPN support.

 

[L&LD]

I have one of thes R7960P routers. I was a beta tester for it in the winter. I would love to use it again but I need all the features I have in the Merlin firmware with my Asus RT-AC68U. Any idea if this router may get some Merlin love? Specifically I need good OpenVPN support.

Asus software on Netgear hardware is breaching the terms of use.

 

[ClockerXP]

Anyone try the koolshare Merlin firmware before? Or maybe this?

[link removed. -rm]

 

[RMerlin]

Anyone try the koolshare Merlin firmware before? Or maybe this?

Running Asuswrt forks on non-Asus hardware is illegal:

https://www.snbforums.com/threads/a...d-forks-on-non-asus-devices-is-illegal.44636/

 

[ClockerXP]

Thanks for the heads up Merlin. Noted!!

 

[helloguys]

How is this R7960P compared with R7800 (which used to be the "#1" on SNB) and R8000P (which was basically the same model publicly available outside Costco)? As far as wireless range is concerned?

 

[SwampKracker]

@e38BimmerFN

I will try to make a long story short...

My buddies, our kids, and their friends all get together for game night a few times a year.

The Xbox 360 supported direct LAN connections (I forget the exact term ATM), but the Xbox One changed things up when Microsoft started requiring Xbox Live (to promote Gold of course).

When that happened there were no consumer routers that could handle the load during game night. The main reason was due to us hitting the max number of UPnP entries (usually ~40 max limit as with my R8500) hardcoded in the firmware.

That's when we started using an SRX5308 and a GS724Tv4. The SRX could handle over 100 UPnP entries, and the switch supported IP routing (layer 3).

Two things changed that made this configuration stop working for us. First, the SRX hit EOL in 2017; although we continued to use it for another year. Second, UPnP in it stopped working. Updates to some of the games and/or consoles caused it. Maybe UPnP in the router simply needed updated, but that wasn't happening.

It took a while for us to find another working router/switch combo... the R9000 and GS728TX. The R9000 supports 100 UPnP entries and the GS728TX supports IP routing (layer 3). The only real reason for the switch upgrade was SFP+ to SFP+ connectivity via a cheap $15 DAC cable. When you have a dozen or so consoles and another 5 to 10 PCs all connected to the same network, actively playing games, performing updates, etc. the extra bandwidth proved helpful.

So, I have personally had over 10 Xbox One's AND several PCs all playing the same COD games (I, II, III, etc.) at the same time... with chat, etc. all working. All consoles showed Open NAT, both in Network settings and in game... in two different setups.

Although I'm a software engineer by trade (though I haven't coded professionally in years), I really have to give credit to a couple of my buddies who are networking gurus for getting everything to play (pun intended) nicely together.

There are pro gamers out there that play together all the time. Yeah, mostly on their own network or with their own static public IP, but Netgear did make the XR700 and SX10 to combat this very situation that you and I both found ourselves in. It may be tough to achieve, but it has to be possible one way or another.

Personally, I wouldn't touch the XR700 and SX10 with a 10 foot pole... and I seriously doubt they would work for what we are talking about... though in theory (or in Netgear's and Netduma's dreams) they should.

Just want to comment this thread has become one of the most interesting and informative for answering the question of "What does it take to have all the gamers in my house at the same time?" The answer from Netgear to purchase a business grade firewall and a business grade switch for gaming using UPnP is just bizarre. Why would their firewall for the office even have UPnP support?

Thanks, kc6108, for sharing your experience.

 

[kc6108]

Why would their firewall for the office even have UPnP support?

Unlike Netgear's consumer routers, UPnP is disabled by default on their business class routers. It had to be specifically enabled on this router.

I believe @e38BimmerFN has it correct that switching the 'NAT Filtering' option to 'Open' (ultimately enabling Full Cone NAT) is the key to your "What does it take to have all the gamers in my house at the same time?" question. I think the reason why it's not an issue in my network is due to the addition of the layer 3 routing switch.

 

[e38BimmerFN]

The R7960P is just as good if not better for wireless than the R7800. The R7960P is a tri band router where the R7800 is only dual band.

How is this R7960P compared with R7800 (which used to be the "#1" on SNB) and R8000P (which was basically the same model publicly available outside Costco)? As far as wireless range is concerned?

 

[e38BimmerFN]

For multi gaming environments, especially online multi player environments, users can review this and make there decisions and configuration changes where needed:
https://badmodems.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21&sid=e422b46907ca62b52ddc7f8f280f4f59

Most home users don't have a need for managed L2/3 switches. So most of the time getting multiple game consoles online at the same time depends ON the router and ON what kind of NAT the routers use and support. Asus and NetGear seem to have the best flexibility in this area. This comes at a disappointment for other router Mfrs that do not provide this flexibility anymore or currently.

 

[kc6108]

@e38BimmerFN

Here are the results for the NAT Analyzer test @ http://nattest.net.in.tum.de using an RAX120 and its default setting for NAT Filtering (= 'Secured'). I ran this test on a router I setup for a friend. I'll rerun the test with it set to 'Open' if ever I get the opportunity.

Here are the results of the test:

UPnP Test (?): found: RAX120 (Gateway)
UPnP Port mapping works



STUN Test (?): Address Restricted Cone NAT



UDP Binding Test (?): Endpoint independent binding, port prediction is easy
TCP Binding Test: Endpoint independent binding, port prediction is easy



UDP Mapping Test (?): your external IP address was different from your local one (NAT).
Your external source ports were preserved on every connection.
TCP Mapping Test: your external IP address was different from your local one (NAT)
Your external source ports were preserved on every connection.



SIP ALG (?): The initial SIP INVITE packet has been modified.
Most probably, your NAT implements a SIP-ALG
FTP ALG: The initial FTP PORT command has been modified.
Most probably, your NAT implements a FTP-ALG



UDP Hole Punching (?): High TTL Test was not successful
Low TTL Test was successful
Silent Test was not successful
TCP Hole Punching: High TTL Test was not successful
Low TTL Test was not successful



UDP Timeout (?): Your UDP timeout is approx. 60 seconds
Your timeout is greater than 60 seconds. There should be no problems.

 

[e38BimmerFN]

@kc6108
Please if you can test with with NAT Filter set to OPEN. Would be great to find out.
I can add this model router to that list of routers that support Full Cone NAT for gamers if it tests correctly.

Please let me know results when you can. Thank you.