Recommendations for discrete Gw/Fw etc. Router

jalyst · Sep 19, 2016

jalyst said:
Very near to "pulling the trigger", just a few more things to knock over (from a sep. but related project) & then I see this:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9185/intel-xeon-d-review-performance-per-watt-server-soc-champion

Hmmm.... ;D

Coming back to this for the first time in ages...
Had a bunch of personal stuff go down with friends/family, so this & related projects had to hit the back burner.

Coming back to it now, & for the life of me, I can't find this bloody model any more:
http://www.supermicro.com/products/system/1U/5018/SYS-5018A-FTN4.cfm
Linked in this post...
http://www.snbforums.com/threads/recommendations-for-discrete-gw-fw-etc-router.24343/#post-182295

Has it been superseded by something more ideal, or is still a solid option?
Haven't exhausted all avenues yet, but can't find the damn thing locally, & amazon.com & uk don't ship to Oz!

I see pfSense now offer 2 successor models, I think they still basically use the same MB (could be wrong):
https://store.pfsense.org/C2758/

Thank-you.

Cloud200 · Sep 19, 2016

Cloud200 · Sep 19, 2016

jalyst said:
So was the one I was originally looking at, also an ADI Engineering creation;
And SuperMicro/Netgate etc. merely provide the bare-bones unit? (i.e. Chassis + MB/CPU + PS)

So far I've only searched for SYS-5018A-FN4T...
Maybe there's better availability/price here for one of those other SM/NG models.

Thanks!

The one you originally looked for was a Supermicro. Netgate rebranded them and pfsense partnered with netgate for a turnkey device.

Later on netgate partnered with ADI-E to develop custom board designed with use for pfsense in mind. That's the first model I linked.

sfx2000 · Sep 19, 2016

Cloud200 said:
Later on netgate partnered with ADI-E to develop custom board designed with use for pfsense in mind. That's the first model I linked.

The relationship between ADI, Netgate, and pfSense is pretty much the Intel Silvermont boxes - both desktop and rack - they're nice little machines....

I run the Netgate RCE-V-2440 on my home network, and it works well enough for my needs these days...

Not sure if it would be up to a 1GB WAN connection, but it works very well with my current 150/10 pipe using pfSense...

FWIW - ADI tends to float things out to see if there is interest before going into production - to whit, the most recent interesting things for this community might be the Minnowboard Turbot-DualE (Silvermont with two NIC's) and the the ARM based microFirewall - if I recall it's a TI Sitara ARM Cortex-A8 - Depending on interest - they might or might not go into production - and then Netgate is typically the vendor...

ADI does do a decent job on the platform design... they do the work and pick the right components to build a platform...

jalyst · Sep 19, 2016

Where does SuperMicro come into it all, did ADI buy their design, & build upon it?
What if I can't find ADI/Netgate bare-bones* (damn my country!), & can only find SM for decent price new or second-hand?

*don't want the "turnkey solution" from Netgate, way too pricey, just want to roll my own using the same basic hw

sfx2000 · Sep 19, 2016

SuperMicro gear is very high quality - so if the price is right... then jump for it.

jalyst · Sep 19, 2016

PITFA, so far not getting anything... >.>
Even emailed SM directly for advice on where to source in Oz.
Zero response from them, might try calling soon.

sfx2000 · Sep 19, 2016

Well if this helps - the QOTOM boxes are very well regarded - and perhaps there, customs might be a bit more friendly...

Alibaba is a good start...

jalyst · Sep 19, 2016

Is that the same base hw I'm wanting (SYS-5018A-xxxx), or something different again?

Ah you're taking about this....
http://www.qotom.net/goods-129-QOTOM-Q190G4+4+LAN+Mini+PC.html
Looks very different to what I was originally wanting...

I don't know how both compare in term of perf/abilities, but I do prefer to stick to 1RU FF that the SM models offer.
And IIRC the SM models had some nice expand-ability options, which were discussed in this thread.

sfx2000 · Sep 19, 2016

jalyst said:
Is that the same base hw I'm wanting (SYS-5018A-xxxx), or something different again?

Ah you're taking about this...
http://www.qotom.net/goods-129-QOTOM-Q190G4+4+LAN+Mini+PC.html

Looks very different to what I was originally wanting...

Yes - or something similar from their product line...

Good thread over on the pfsense thread on this box - solid performance there, and the Arstechnica article was pretty favorable as well for their homebrew solution...

jalyst · Sep 19, 2016

Sorry, see my updated post...
Yeah I BM that Ars article, been meaning to get to it.

System Error Message · Sep 19, 2016

for a lower budget consider the mikrotik RB3011 as it has SFP and lots of ports so its good for FTTH if you have the SFP module. lots of control (layer 2-layer 7) and seems to top out at 500Mb/s at the moment.

If you have more money you can get one of the x86 mentioned above. You dont need the most recent hardware and supermicro recently added overclocking for some of their boards but with recent intel unless its unlocked theres not much overclocking to do.

pfsense isnt the only OS, you can use many different ones but pfsense is focused. I strongly suggest using intel server NICs ( you can get these cheap 2nd hand) for performance and drivers reasons. You can also get 2nd hand SFP/SFP+ cards too which is what i use on my file server for 10Gb/s. Doesnt work on windows but works fine on linux. Realtek however works well on windows but not on linux. If the board you get incorporates NICs other than realtek than you will be alright.

is an example for using standard components instead of embedded. Other than that you can consider 1U and 2U cases. Some 2U cases with riser can use full width cards and ATX PSUs (you'll need something like seasonic 600W PSU with rear fan). One of my server has 2 top of the line GPUs using risers, extenders and also a half width dual SFP+ card which all fits nicely stuff into 2U.

jalyst · Sep 20, 2016

Sigh, Alibaba's got nothing, really only interested in those SM models for now: "SYS-5018A"

Nothing on Amazon that ships to Oz, except for the Tn4 version which I'm not too keen on, & post costs a fortune.

Similar for eBay....

If you want to source in retail channels in Oz, it's all cloak & dagger BS, you can't get prices;
They hound you about what it's all for, & then can't give you prices once you clarify (not "enteprisey" enough, ugh).
Instead they refer you to someone based in other states/cities, geezus... >.>

*EDIT*
Actually it seems they do have an outlet in my city, briefly chatted with someone working AH.
Waiting for them to email me back with the best pricing they can do for all 8 of those models.
Steeling myself for stupid prices, hopefully today, if not then tomorrow morning.

jalyst · Sep 21, 2016

Any ideas where else I can find a C7258 1U chassis, like SuperMicro's SYS-5018A-x series?
I should have some local prices tomorrow, for the 8 models (Silvermont & Xeon-D) listed a few posts above.
Not holding my breath for good prices, & so far I still can't find much OS that'll ship here for a good total cost.
Is C7258 still even the way to go for my stipulated (relative narrowly focused) purpose?*
I do want something rack mountable like the 5018A-x series is...

*remember I have a sep. build underway for a more powerful machine that'll be my dedicated NAS/jack-of-all

System Error Message · Sep 21, 2016

xcase? Just search about.

I stuffed desktops into 2U chassis complete with all the components, the atx PSU, dual GPU, dedicated NIC. This gave me the space i needed to build a cluster. I even have a 1U case with 1U PSU and 4 hot swap 3.5 inch drive bays infront.

jalyst · Sep 21, 2016

Thanks, I searched for xcase...
But I don't see how that addresses all the points/Qns in my post above?

BR.

System Error Message · Sep 22, 2016

well any desktop PC can be a router for pfsense. You dont actually need supermicro.

I'll give you a very good example. 1st gen iseries xeons, the low voltage quad cores at 2.2Ghz are perfect for pfsense because not only is it low powered but is cheap.

So an example would be
xeon L5520/i7 920
scythe big shuriken 2 rev b/scythe kozuti (both are good and work with my 6 core xeon overclocked to almost twice the frequency very well)
any lga 1366 motherboard with at least 2 pcie x16 slots(1 for NIC, 1 for GPU/upgrade)
1x8GB or 2x8GB DDR3 Dimms (you can go with 3x8GB if you want)
2nd hand intel quad port server NIC (half width)
any inexpensive 2U case that will fit an ATX/microATX board (if you use 1U you will need risers for NIC and you will need 1U PSU. You will also need kozuti heatsink as big shuriken wont fit)
2U/ATX PSU with rear fan (such as seasonic 600W or antec green)
SSD/hard drive for pfsense

GPU needed to perform setup but once thats done you can remove GPU.

The xeon L5520 are often sold in pairs as they support dual CPU usage, this means you can use the other one for a file/media server and run plex and other stuff. Although you can use standard desktop LGA1366 boards, ECC memory is dependent on CPU as the controller is on CPU.

I dont get the craze with supermicro boards. Server boards are good only because they have integrated GPU and LOM ethernet port but desktop boards allow you to overclock which allows you to get double the CPU speeds if you want while keeping the voltage within intel spec.

jalyst · Sep 22, 2016

I'm listening, so anything much more toned down, want to keep it to 1U & more single purpose.
The other build I'm working on, can be more multi-purpose/wide-ranging...

Not impressed by the pricing I've seen for the 5018A-x units (or similar) so far, TBH.
But if I can build something that closely approximates that overall approach.
Is close to being as power efficient, is as powerful /watt or more, & quite a bit less in total cost.
Then I'm sold....

Perhaps a build based around the Xeon-D series is cheaper, & is still very similar to BB units made by NG/SM etc?

System Error Message · Sep 22, 2016

Well i chose the lga1366 because the only difference between the 1st gen iseries and newer ones is the AVX instruction set(FLOPs rating doesnt matter for routers) and slight lower IPC than newer ones. Hence older iseries is still valid. Other than DDR4 improvements, 1st gen iseries have 3 memory channels so you get more memory bandwidth which is good for routers.

I have 2 L5520s that im going to use in a server board for the purpose of compute, just need to figure out what pin is the power switch.

For a cost breakdown, i bought everything 2nd hand but they are widely available because datacenters are chucking them out.
xeon L5520 £20
LGA1366 board £50-£80 (note bacareful with CPU socket and do a discharge by long pressing power button with PSU attached but unplugged from mains)
intel quad port server NIC £15
That was the cost for me 2 years ago so imagine how much cheaper they can be now. I choose the LGA1366 because you can overclock xeons with them and xeons are really good overclockers.

Other solutions, you can use i3 or even dual core xeons as long as they have hyperthreading.

Not sure about xeon D series but avoid the celerons and low power line like the intel atoms. There may be xeons based on that architecture but they arent great when it comes to processing. The reason to avoid the atom line is because the solutions with more NICs cost more than i3 with quad NIC and whether or not they have the PCIe slots needed for the NIC is another factor to consider too. Sure you can get mini itx form factor but it is costly. Even if you put power use into consideration the solution with i3 or older iseries is still cheaper and the xeons can be undervolted (with the board too) if you do not use a server board. Celerons CPUs that are cut down, they are ok for basic tasks but dont expect much from them for encryption performance. Hardware encryption is another reason to consider the correct xeon.

edit: just checked the intel D series, they are inexpensive low power CPUs with many cores but their cache size equal to the lower ends. They are good to consider if you can find a board compatible but they are new and way more expensive than my suggestion. with DDR4 they can have equal memory bandwidth. Also xeon l5520 doesnt have hardware AES but you can get equivalent that uses the 35nm process which will have it.

edit: the L56xx have more cache, lower power but still uses the same lga1366 and has AES. You could overclock the bus a little to get faster ram and CPU but still keep the same voltages.

jalyst · Sep 22, 2016

How about this???
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FX8TXUQ/?tag=snbforums-20
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10689/gigabyte-gbbsi7hal6500-dual-lan-skylake-brix-review

At least it bloody ships here & is readily available locally, instead of via "specialised cloak & dagger" resellers etc!
Seems like massive overkill for what I'm wanting to focus it towards, & I really want more flexibility/expandability.
Wanted the ability to have at least 3 WAN interfaces, failing over, or even aggregating/LB occasionally.

Or maybe even this???
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GSTYXWM/?tag=snbforums-20

I hate the form-factor of both, I wanted something that'd go into the Rack I'm also installing >.>
But if it's better in every way than the Silvermont/Rangeley & Xeon-D units I was eyeing;*
Then considering how much cheaper & more accessible it is, then maybe it's the way to go?

TBH, I still don't know enough about all 3 platforms & all the areas in which they differ, trying to read that now.
Where do these 2 options fall down, compared to the bare-bones units I originally had my heart set on?

*EDIT*
I guess if I need more than 1 WAN port, I could always use the built-in USB3? e.g:
http://www.virtuallyghetto.com/2016...rnet-adapter-nic-driver-for-esxi-5-5-6-0.html
And there's PCIe IIRC, though not sure it'd be optimal for adding 1 or more Gbe port?
Given I've a separate -much more powerful- build coming, I probably won't bother w.a Hypervisor for this hw config.
I may play a bit, but longer term probably not...

*except expandability & power-consumption presumably

Recommendations for discrete Gw/Fw etc. Router

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