Recommendations/thoughts for Ethernet Cabling & Switch(es)

[htismaqe]

If you only have one switch, there's really no need for the patch panels at all. Patch panels become useful when you have multiple switches or other devices where you might need to change the cross connect. If you have one flat network with one network switch, patch panels really are just extra cost for no benefit.

EDIT: I should qualify that. If you're looking to save money, go with Cat6 and lose the patch panels. However, if you're insistent on Cat6a, azazel is giving you good advice. Cat6a is a bear to terminate and it's much easier to just punch down to a panel and use patch cables.

 

[KenZ71]

If paying an installer I would probably say have them buy everything and guarantee specific test results.

If doing it myself, which I did a few months ago, simple Cat5e. For home use the network is mostly video streaming which don't use a lot of bandwidth

 

[jalyst]

Hmm okay, I'll ask them on Monday which one of those jacks has that feature.

Checked with them & they assure me that both will be fine, it meets some Australian standards (can't recall exactly what he said), he said there's no metal clamp but they've tested both extensively on 6a & there's no issue. Still, I think I'll "err on the safe side" & get the shielded jack, there's not a huge $ disparity between both, what do you reckon?

I've got a home wiring specialist coming tomorrow for a quote: http://www.stevensonscable.com I wasn't able to explain in great detail what I envisage, as he was in quite a hurry at the time. At least he's available tomorrow between 2-3pm (amazing), so I'll explain everything then. Be interesting to see his reaction when I say I want Cat6a, & finger the stuff I've found on 4cabling.

 

[awstey]

For me, Cat5e cabling is already enough. Find the cost-effective cabling depends on your requirement.

 

[azazel1024]

If you are spending money on going 6a, then you should be doing it right. Doing it right means punching down both ends of solid core wiring and running stranded patch cables between the switch and the patch panel. As well as between the keystone jacks and any networking equipment plugged in on that end.

Otherwise, why are you thinking of buying 6a? The further up the Ethernet food chain you go, the harder it is to properly crimp a connector (terminating in a punch down arguably gets easier, if SLIGHTLY more time consuming the further up the chain you go). Putting a crimped connector on solid core 5e isn't to spec, but it is pretty easy to do. Cat6 is harder and not to spec. Cat6a is even HARDER and not to spec.

So, it might save you a fair amount of money not getting a cat6a patch panel and pre-made patch cables, but if you are going to the expense of getting cat6a to begin with, you should do it properly. Otherwise you probably are better off with cat6 or 5e and either sticking with a patch panel and pre-made cables, which saves a ton over cat6a, even without the patch panel and pre-made patch cables, or crimping the in wall cables at the switch, which will be SIGNIFICANTLY easier with cat6 or 5e and also more likely you get a proper and good crimp on the cable. Just because the crimp works fine at 1GbE, doesn't mean that it'll fail if you upgrade your equipment later to 10GbE. Which means time redoing it later, or buying new equipment if you can't get a good enough crimp to run 10GbE over the cable. Plus lots of extra time determining the issue, etc.

Heck, you don't want to buy a patch panel, with only a few runs, just buy some extra Cat6a keystone jacks and put them in 1-2 electrical low voltage face plates right by the switch and run 1 meter patch panels from the boxes to the switch. I've seen some people do this when they only need to run 4-6 wires in the wall. US prices, about $2 for a low voltage electrical face plate that'll accept a keystone jack face plate, which is maybe $1.50. Then the price of the keystone jacks, which is maybe $8 each for cat6a keystones. Total price is maybe $40 for 4 wire runs and then they'll be done RIGHT.

 

[azazel1024]

For me, Cat5e cabling is already enough. Find the cost-effective cabling depends on your requirement.

Honestly this. It is part of the reason why half my house is 5e and half is 6. The stuff that is relatively easy for me to re-pull and/or short runs is 5e and the rest is 6. I would like the ability to run 10GbE someday and I know it should work fine on even 5e, but just to be safe, the longest runs and the ones that would be impossible to re-pull without having to open walls, I did as cat6. Now anything new is cat6 only because I ran out of my cat5e box, but I still have 350ft of cat6 left.

I don't plan any new runs anytime soon. Whole house is renovated, but I am planning an addition that'll likely need 2-4 runs in it, but frankly I'll probably not need to buy a new box of cat cabling unless I buy a new house some day. I am extremely comfortable with the wiring. I know it runs 1GbE perfectly even at the longest run of 47 meters I have from my ONT box in my garage to my router in the basement on the opposite side of the house (tested it between laptop and server as my internet connection is only 75/75, so I couldn't stress test the installation that way) and that one is cat5e, in large part because I don't expect to need >1GbE speeds to the internet for a LOT of years.

If I do, up coming 2.5 and 5GbE specifications are supposed to be able to work on cat5e at up to 100 meters, just like 1GbE does. And even if 10GbE comes along some day...that run just might work at 10GbE speeds, and I can always short stop the connection by my network rack and put a router there as the wire going to my current router runs right past my network rack on it's way. Then the run would only be 30 meters and also easy to re-pull.

It is all about budget, needs and what you are comfortable with. My suggestion, cat6 is a very nice balance of everything.

 

[htismaqe]

My suggestion, cat6 is a very nice balance of everything.

I agree with this.

 

[jalyst]

One of the runs (the shortest one at ~7m) has no power-ports where I plan to terminate it, & that's where I want to put the AP.*

What is PoE exactly, is it literally power over the Ethernet twisted pairs, or is it a completely separate power cord that's wrapped tightly up against the Ethernet cabling? If the latter, is it possible to get it in ~7m lengths, & using Cat6? Most of the AP's I'm most interested in don't support PoE, is it still possible to retrofit them to use PoE, & will PoE easily provide enough juice?

In some ways PoE would be the way to go, because it removes the need to run power cabling & install a power-port/switch to that location. It also keeps the source of the power back where the Rack is, which is also where I'll have the UPS, so then I can easily have the AP hooked-up to the back-up power, along with the NAS, Fw/Gw, & Other devices.

Then again, I still do like the idea of a power-port/switch & RJ45 port in the general location I plan to have the AP. As then I have more flexibility to mount them wherever I want on that wall, provided I've the right length of cabling.

*& maybe 1 or 2 other things

 

[azazel1024]

Yes, it is running 24/48v over the twisted pair of the Ethernet wiring itself. In your case, since you just have one, I'd get a PoE injector. Just make sure it is gigabit capable injector. Most injectors you can set to 5, 7 or 12v (it'll pass 24/48v over the Ethernet wiring and then step it down at the receiving end to 5, 7 or 12v and you then plug the receiver in to your networking equipment using a DC-DC connector).

 

[jalyst]

Bummer, I've used wiring like that in the past (was to power a WRT54G in an outdoors enclosure that was rigged-up to a parabolic antenna), but IIRC it wasn't really PoE, as it had a power line sort of tightly bound to the Ethernet cabling, power wasn't actually sent over the Ethernet wiring.

As mentioned this run isn't just for the AP, can you get Cat6 in such a set-up, & what sort of impact will injection over the actual wiring have on performance? Since I have just 1, what do you mean? If you can, directly addressing each of my points/Qns in my prior post, would make things much clearer.

Thank-you.

 

[azazel1024]

You don't really have multiple questions in your earlier post. You asked what POE was, I explained. Bundled wiring would generally be a no-no. Even with separate insulation you don't want to bundle low voltage and standard voltage wiring together. I don't think it is actually against code...

Does it matter if the residential electrical wiring is tightly bound to the Ethernet cable or not? You'd still need to run it, terminate it in a separate box, etc. When you run the Ethernet cable, just fish the electrical wiring with it. The perk of POE is that you can power something using already installed network cabling and/or you can avoid having to install an electrical box and/or separate box (low voltage terminating in a box with standard voltage is DEFFINITELY against code and extremely unsafe). It is also typically for gear that can pull the power straight from the Ethernet wiring, so it doesn't need a separate DC adapter or AC power cable (like a ceiling mounted access point). Of course with a lot of aftermarket injectors, you have an injector and receiver, so that you can power 5/7/12v equipment that is not intended to be POE powered, off the power from the injector.

From what it sounds like you want, you'll need to run standard voltage wiring there separately and install an outlet. POE cannot support the kind of wattages you'd need to run an access point, NAS and multiple other devices. With 48v POE the maximum wattage is around 20w IIRC.

By just 1, I meant 1 run and I missed that you wanted to power other stuff. That would not work out. You can get POE switches, but they are a lot more expensive than a conventional switch. An injector is around $20-25. If you needed, say, 8 ports, that would cost ~$160 for injectors, where as an 8 port POE switch might only be $100 more than a conventional non-POE switch.

So, generally you want a POE switch only if you are talking 4 or more ports and NON-gigabit, or 6-7+ ports and gigabit capable (100Mbps 8 port switches that can supply POE to 4 of the ports are pretty cheap. It is the 8+ port capable switches as well as gigabit capable POE switches that are expensive).

 

[jalyst]

Oh the NAS wouldn't be at that locale, neither the fw (both of them would be at the other end -with the main switch), just a few other devices I haven't mentioned yet, prolly not anything too bandwidth intensive all-up (or high wattage), & they're not fully on the radar yet.

But just wanted to know what sort of perf. degradation I can expect over Cat6 PoE. i.e. what sort of carrying capacity I can still expect at that distance (measurement's still a bit rough -but it's fairly close) with power also running over it.

And I'll likely want to use PoE for an AP that doesn't natively support it (but not 100% decided on that yet), so I want to be sure there's no potential issues there. As mentioned if there's no issues, then having it powered from back where the rack is would have its advantages, as then the AP can be part of the power backup system I'll have in place.

Man, I need to get you on a video link or something & point out physically how the entire thing's laid out?!? ;-P

3am, GN.

 

[azazel1024]

erm, full bandwidth. POE won't disrupt the Ethernet signaling at all. As for distance, it is pretty long, 50 meters or something like that for the rated wattage. The amperage is pretty tiny, which is why it uses 24/48v DC, so that the Vdrop is tiny, despite who narrow gauge the wiring is.

I mean, there is no 10GbE POE standard yet, so 10GbE might not work or is just a no go, but gigabit will work at full duplex speeds and no issues so long as the equipment at both ends is POE gigabit capable.

 

[jalyst]

Really? Surprising. Thought there'd have to be some impact to overall carrying capacity, well that's good news!

(1)
So say I wanted to power one of the really beastly consumer wireless routers so often reviewed here at SNB;
Still be more than enough power, right?

(2)
Is the cabling typically pre-made with injectors etc included, or do I buy normal Cat6 & make some changes to it?

(3)
In the future, would it be easy enough to use that existing cabling for PoE, but for faster than GbE e.g. 10GbE+?

This is the main switch I'm getting for now, but maybe I should get one of the PoE capable models listed there, then again, if it's just for one run it's prolly not worth it. *EDIT* Fully read your prior post -yeah def. not worth it I think!

Okay def. GN, thanks so much for your time/input, I assure you it's very much appreciated.
If you're ever in this part of the world, you're a welcome guest, beers & BBQ's all around!

 

[jalyst]

Can't sleep damn it, AFAICT quickly OTTOMH...
These are the only "Internet Connected" devices I'll have in 2 of the locations where there'll be 3 runs/terminations:

Upstairs Entertainment Area (1 RJ45 port)
****************************
Port 1
-nVidia Shield (or some sort of AndroidTV device)
-Playstation 4
-Foxtel STB
-Surface Pro 3 (using USB to Eth. adapter)

Downstairs Entertainment Area (2 RJ45 ports)
******************************
Port 1
-HEPC

Port 2
-Xbox One
-Foxtel STB
-Surface Pro 3 (using USB to Eth. adapter)

Wifi-only
-Roku
-ChromeCast

So, I really only need two 4-port Gbit switches...
Two 6-port or two 8-port seems overkill, but if it's only a tiny bit more $ & you're sure the jump's necessary, then please explain why IYO.
Following that, what exact make/model (4-8 port) Gbit switches do you recommend?

The 3rd location to which there'll be the 1 Ethernet run...
At this stage I don't think it's necessary to bother w.a switch, there'll be a PoE run to just the 1 device: a WRT/AP.

 

[azazel1024]

Really? Surprising. Thought there'd have to be some impact to overall carrying capacity, well that's good news!

(1)
So say I wanted to power one of the really beastly consumer wireless routers so often reviewed here at SNB;
Still be more than enough power, right?

(2)
Is the cabling typically pre-made with injectors etc included, or do I buy normal Cat6 & make some changes to it?

(3)
In the future, would it be easy enough to use that existing cabling for PoE, but for faster than GbE e.g. 10GbE+?

This is the main switch I'm getting for now, but maybe I should get one of the PoE capable models listed there, then again, if it's just for one run it's prolly not worth it. *EDIT* Fully read your prior post -yeah def. not worth it I think!

Okay def. GN, thanks so much for your time/input, I assure you it's very much appreciated.
If you're ever in this part of the world, you're a welcome guest, beers & BBQ's all around!

On your first, depends. Just check out the rating on the injector you are buying, example http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003CFATQK/?tag=snbforums-20 claims 802.3af compliance, which is 15.4w of power, this will NOT power some of the higher draw routers. 802.3at is 25.5w of power and that almost certainly would. You'd need to try to do some research on the specific router you were looking at. My TP-Link Archer C8 only runs at about 7.5w at idle and only about 9w under heavy load. Start-up only hits about 10w or so. So I could easily use that, but I also know some of the other routers out there, ESPECIALLY Asus routers, can hit the mid teens.

Just search for POE injector. They are separate devices, generally around $20-25 USD. Plug it in to AC power at the injector end as well as to the Ethernet cabling in and out. Then at the receiver end, plug the other part of the injector in and then connect the DC power to your DC powered device as well as the Ethernet cable to it. Some POE injectors are ONLY an injector, because they are made to be used with a POE complaint network device at the receiving end.

On your last, welp, it depends. POE might someday be extended to 10GbE, but it hasn't right now. So...no ideas. I'd say maybe/probably.

 

[azazel1024]

Can't sleep damn it, AFAICT quickly OTTOMH...
These are the only "Internet Connected" devices I'll have in 2 of the locations where there'll be 3 runs/terminations:

Upstairs Entertainment Area (1 RJ45 port)
****************************
Port 1
-nVidia Shield (or some sort of AndroidTV device)
-Playstation 4
-Foxtel STB
-Surface Pro 3 (using USB to Eth. adapter)

Downstairs Entertainment Area (2 RJ45 ports)
******************************
Port 1
-HEPC

Port 2
-Xbox One
-Foxtel STB
-Surface Pro 3 (using USB to Eth. adapter)

Wifi-only
-Roku
-ChromeCast

So, I really only need two 4-port Gbit switches...
Two 6-port or two 8-port seems overkill, but if it's only a tiny bit more $ & you're sure the jump's necessary, then please explain why IYO.
Following that, what exact make/model (4-8 port) Gbit switches do you recommend?

The 3rd location to which there'll be the 1 Ethernet run...
At this stage I don't think it's necessary to bother w.a switch, there'll be a PoE run to just the 1 device: a WRT/AP.

Most any gigabit dumb switch would work fine. I'd recommend 8 port, because 4 port switches are as rare as hens teeth and 5 port gigabit dumb switches are typically the same price and basically the same power consumption as an 8 port. You MIGHT save $2-3 going with a 5-port over an 8-port. And you could be hosed later on if you add several networking devices later.

I've had success with DLink, Trendnet, TP-Link and Netgear dumb switches.

Honestly, since you are making the runs already, this argues for Cat5e or Cat6 and just running extra cables. Why use a switch at these locations when you could run extra cables at the same time? The extra cat5e/6 likely isn't going to be more than the cost of the switches, and possibly less. And then you don't have devices fighting for bandwidth over the single link back to whatever core switch you are using. If you run 2, 3 or 4 cables back and some day you add an extra network device A) You could always have run 1 more cable than you needed to for the devices you have now and/or B) At that point you could always add a switch.

 

[CaptainSTX]

You are also going to have to pay attention to the output voltage available at the far end of the cable from the injector where you will install the splitter to break out both power and Ethernet connections. DC/Ethernet splitters such as the TPLINK TL POE200 have a switch selectable option for either 5V, 9V or 12V output at the splitter end.

The ASUS router I have requires 19V, 1.58 A = 30 watts. For the ASUS as long as the power sources AMP rating is at least 1.58 A you can use the injector but having a Voltage output significantly different than 19V will might fry the router if the voltage is too high and at some lower voltage the router won't work.

You will probably need to select a router or AP to operate at a voltage that you can find an injector/splitter combination to provide.

While your stated distance of 7 m isn't a long run it still doesn't hurt to check the voltage being provided using a digital voltmeter because if the voltage drop is to great then again your network equipment powered using POE may fail to work.

In the long run it may be easier to purchase an AP designed to be powered using POE so you don't have to find a splitter that will provide the correct power.

 

[jalyst]

Honestly, since you are making the runs already, this argues for Cat5e or Cat6 and just running extra cables. Why use a switch at these locations when you could run extra cables at the same time? The extra cat5e/6 likely isn't going to be more than the cost of the switches, and possibly less. And then you don't have devices fighting for bandwidth over the single link back to whatever core switch you are using. If you run 2, 3 or 4 cables back and some day you add an extra network device A) You could always have run 1 more cable than you needed to for the devices you have now and/or B) At that point you could always add a switch.

I'd see the point if I needed multiple eth ports at multiple locations, but we're only talking 2 locations. Two decent ~8 port Gbit switches should easily manage the traffic (i.e. reduce collisions etc) & there should be more than enough bandwidth on those 2 runs, surely? For the location downstairs, as you'll see I have one port exclusively for the HEPC, that runs back to the main switch. To have ~8 RJ45 ports at each of those locations for ~8 distinct runs seems a bit excessive, & would surely get quite messy & add a lot more work for the guy?

The ASUS router I have requires 19V, 1.58 A = 30 watts..

Geezus, some of those top-end WRT's power demands are as high as 30w, are you sure?!? Sigh.
I'm not sure I get the rest of your post, I will re-read it later....

 

[azazel1024]

It doesn't add much work. Then again, if he is charging a flat cost per drop, not a cost per location, then, yeah, the price would go up a lot.

No, it shouldn't be a big issue for what you want to be running at each location, but it is still shared bandwidth, and you had been talking a lot about wanting cat6a. If you are going "overkill" to ensure future ability to run 10GbE, or maybe even faster, then you might as well run the extra wires now. Otherwise, you are handicapping possible performance.

Also wouldn't need to have 8 runs to each location, just 4 based on the device count I see you have. But you can do it as a single pull to each location.