Recommendations/thoughts for Ethernet Cabling & Switch(es)

[jalyst]

I'll have to ask if it's "flat cost per drop", I won't be happy if he tries to get "tricky" with me, he's the guy who originally wired the entire place. He has no excuse really, knows it all quite intimately, we've had him back many times in the ~12yrs since the house was built to do various overhauls/upgrades.

Re the guy I had out the other day, long story but I don't think we'll be sticking with him, will probably try to get at least one more mob out to do a quote though. As our main guy's almost always impossible to get on site, always extremely busy & you can never get him to commit to any work. He's usually working on much bigger stuff (new sites or major renovations etc) for his master builder boss.

Yeah maybe I will, don't know if I mentioned it but I don't think I'll bother with 6a, if I was still bothering with it then I wouldn't see the point. More than enough bandwidth having ~4 (even much more) of those devices -or similar- for each run, especially when I upgrade the switch longer-term to 3/5/10GbE+.

But if I only go cat6 & then do say 5 runs to the tv room downstairs & 4 to the tv room upstairs, that's not so bad I guess. Then again we're talking 9 lines all running together initially,* before 4 of them get diverted upstairs, could make the job trickier!?! Hard to explain but with the path I have in mind, they all all have to run together like that initially.

I don't really get CaptainSTX's last post here, I'll have to review the last several posts here tomorrow, getting to bed early tonight.

Cheers!
*Well 10 actually, but the one going through the bathroom & ultimately to the AP, will split-off quite early on!

 

[CaptainSTX]

I don't really get CaptainSTX's last post here, I'll have to review the last several posts here tomorrow, getting to bed early tonight.

Cheers!
*Well 10 actually, but the one going through the bathroom & ultimately to the AP, will split-off quite early on!

If you still plan to use POE I suggest you familiarize yourself with Ohm's law and voltage drop.

 

[azazel1024]

If you still plan to use POE I suggest you familiarize yourself with Ohm's law and voltage drop.

You don't really need to with POE. The rated power delivery is at maximum length. POE devices complying to the standard are not supposed to draw more than the maximum available power at maximum length.

Sure, you could draw more at a shorter distance, but at 48v, the amperage is low enough that even on the tiny wire that is in Ethernet wiring, you aren't talking about a huge Vdrop. Without pulling up a calculator, you are probably looking at a drop from 48v down to maybe 44v or so over a distance of 100 meters and roughly .3A. Just means that in theory at a meter or two distance you might realistically be able to suck 18-20w on "15.4w" POE port. However, the POE device complying to the standard, should never draw more than 15.4w. So kind of doesn't matter much.

Of course the closer you can locate an injector and splitter, or POE switch/POE end device, the lower the overall power consumption, because the loss to the wire will be less.

 

[CaptainSTX]

You don't really need to with POE. The rated power delivery is at maximum length. POE devices complying to the standard are not supposed to draw more than the maximum available power at maximum length.

Sure, you could draw more at a shorter distance, but at 48v, the amperage is low enough that even on the tiny wire that is in Ethernet wiring, you aren't talking about a huge Vdrop. Without pulling up a calculator, you are probably looking at a drop from 48v down to maybe 44v or so over a distance of 100 meters and roughly .3A. Just means that in theory at a meter or two distance you might realistically be able to suck 18-20w on "15.4w" POE port. However, the POE device complying to the standard, should never draw more than 15.4w. So kind of doesn't matter much.

Of course the closer you can locate an injector and splitter, or POE switch/POE end device, the lower the overall power consumption, because the loss to the wire will be less.

I agree that if you use equipment designed to be powered by POE you should be able to power it at the distance of 100m because the injector starts with 48 V. Using POE designed equipment is the best way, but there are other circumstances and the OP mentioned a case that would require a Plan B.

The OP talked about powering a device that doesn't use 48V and isn't designed for POE. His option would be to purchase a splitter to break out the DC and the Ethernet signal at the far end. If he could not find a injector/ splitter combination that would allow him to break out the correct voltage and/or he didn't want to spend the money his Plan C might be to buy a pair of very inexpensive splitters and install one at each end of your Ethernet run. Instead of using a POE injector you would use the original wall wart/ power supply at the near end and break it out at the far end. Since you then would probably be using much less than 48V the distance you can deliver a useable voltage will be shorter and hence he had better measure the voltage at the far end to determine what you are getting. If the voltage isn't high enough then he would need to find a higher voltage source and test again.

 

[jalyst]

It doesn't add much work. Then again, if he is charging a flat cost per drop, not a cost per location, then, yeah, the price would go up a lot. No, it shouldn't be a big issue for what you want to be running at each location, but it is still shared bandwidth, and you had been talking a lot about wanting cat6a. If you are going "overkill" to ensure future ability to run 10GbE, or maybe even faster, then you might as well run the extra wires now. Otherwise, you are handicapping possible performance. Also wouldn't need to have 8 runs to each location, just 4 based on the device count I see you have. But you can do it as a single pull to each location.

Sorry for the delay, picking this up again in the next few days hopefully!

Yeah maybe you're right....
Will go for 8 runs in total then, 4 and 3 to two of those locations, and then 1 to that third location, all using cat6A.
The furthest spot (3 runs) should be quite easy to pull to, once we get to the spot just before it (4 runs).

Total overkill, but the best way to go if I insist on using cat6a, & want to ensure future-proofness for a looong time.
Once I get my head around cost for everything, I may balk at total cost (local prices have jumped LOTS since I last looked at this) & go back to cat6.

You said for cat6A I really have to use patch-panels...
Is that also true for those 3 locations where those 8 runs are terminating, or only back at the Rack?
I don't see how I'm going to terminate all the opposite ends at those 3 locations, into patch-panels.

 

[jalyst]

I've settled on all of the cabling etc (not actually bought yet), I'll summarise all of that later.
I have my sparky coming out for an initial survey this Fri (AustEST), & to do the entire job the following Wed.

I'm now just trying to decide which variant of this 16-port Gbit Switch to get, Smart or L2 Managed:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009LEJJM6/?tag=snbforums-20
I once knew the differences but forget now, what are some reasons why I might want to pay ~$37USD extra?
I have a Google search lined-up to look at ASAP, I just need some shut-eye first.

Thank-you!

*UPDATE*
Have done a tonne of reading on this now, have settled on "Managed" (L2):
http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/cat-39_TL-SG3216.html
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005KQ5FSG/?tag=snbforums-20
Though 2 of their "Smart" Switches are also interesting, esp. the latter, maybe something to consider LT:
http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/cat-40_TL-SG2216.html
http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/cat-40_T1700X-16TS.html
Will list all the other stuff I've got later...

 

[jalyst]

I've taken a ~3min 1080p vid. of all the stuff I've got so far, took bloody forever to upload, can't wait to fix that!
I'd be very much appreciative of folks thoughts on what I have so far, & if you feel I might be missing something:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9zzrzfwwym5xdp5/20170326_180924.mp4?dl=0

If you want me to take some more vids or pics to more clearly demonstrate what I have, please let me know.
Switch will arrive Tue/Wed AustEST, the more I read about it the more I like, excellent for the $, but just the start!

The 2 guys come tomm. from about 12pm AustEST (Brisbane time) to do an initial survey, & at this stage Wed is still planned as "D-Day". Was disappointed when they said they've little experience with 6A, what's the best way to test each run is running at maximum theoretical (or near) potential? Presumably I'd need some sort of 10Gbe (or higher) gear, to stress test it?

Thanks again!

*EDIT*
I mistakenly said 7 runs, at this stage it's 8: 1 at 1, 4 at 1, & 3 at 1.
But I may yet add a couple more locations, each with 1-2 runs.
Also mistakenly said hyphen, when I meant forward slash!

 

[jalyst]

Anyone? (see above)

The guys came out today for an initial consultation/survey, still proceeding on Wed at this stage.
I may now do ~2 more locations, each with ~1 run, but don't have enough jacks so will have to get them later.

Will leave the ~2 locations with ~1 run (WiFi APs that I'm yet to decide on) to the very last, as not sure where exactly to place them, & how best to orient them.

Thoughts on that too appreciated, but maybe best in my WiFi AP thread.

Need to get the Rack bedded down pretty soon too, though they felt we could still get the rough cabling in even w.o. the Rack, but they'd prefer to have the Rack in place to tie-it-all-off etc.

Thread for that here, that's prolly a greater priority for me at this point than the WiFi AP's.
I'll be reviving it within the next ~24hrs if anyone hasn't before me.

Thank-you!

 

[System Error Message]

im no expert at cabling setups and such but what i do know is that those cables may be cat5e. However the proper way to test is expensive but my suspicion is the logo that looks like a hp logo and that it is made in china, both pointing to signs that its a product that tries to be something it isnt. If you bought them from a place thats well known to have cables at their ratings than thats great.

Here in the UK the rack solutions are very very expensive. Even my wheeled 12U rack is just a frame on wheels cost me more than £100 for that. There are many ways to do your rack but it depends which is cheaper, the raw materials (like brackets and such) and to fashion it out of wood and other existing materials or to go with a solution. Unfortunately in the UK many people like to rob you in daylight rather than being honest and my rack is from star tech and is adjustable and meant for servers.

Some other things you should consider for your rack, the weight that it can withstand is important. You should plan from the start whether you want your network and server rack together or separate, things like the materials if you plan on using APs around as metal acts as a faraday cage which can be good or bad(good that it reduces wifi on the inside of the cage from outside, bad that if you put an AP in signal outside would be poor). Trays that you may use to put devices on so that may need space and there are also the options of drawers too.

You can also go with a rack + shelf option, even my shelf is just a metal frame with MDF wood panels designed for toolsheds and garages, it can withstand a lot of weight too but is cheap and at least the drawers for it is cheap too. The shelf allows you to cheaply fit monitors and other things.

your choice for switch is alright, tp link switches arent the best but hopefully they will work reliably for you. Its a good option for going cheap with the switch first as you may upgrade in the future. Look at the switch featureset and what you want/need in features. Smart is non configurable while managed is. When i say configurable, i mean writing rules and such which unless you need the security and advanced filtering or routing, semi managed/smart is what you want.

 

[jalyst]

That's not a HP logo, that 4Cabling's logo...
I can take more vids if folks aren't convinced this cat6a cabling & related bits are top-notch quality?

You're not wrong about Racks, still a WIP, see how I go!

For now I don't want separate Server & Network Racks/Cabinets, my AP's wont be anywhere near the Rack.
I suspect 12RU 19" should be more than enough, but will investigate that very soon in my dedicated thread.

Definitely noted.

Yeah I was impressed with the feature-set of this L2 managed model, 1Gbit will be fine -for now.

 

[jalyst]

Post by CaptainSTX...

Never used a rack but my general comments on building out a home LAN are as follows:

1. Number of cables to each location:

To critical network hubs, where you may have multiple pieces of hardware requiring multiple drops extra cables might be justified. Most locations requiring multiple Ethernet ports can be handled using unmanaged Gigabyte switches which in today's market cost less than US $3.00 per port. You can't even buy a keystone jack for that price.

Run spare cables to locations where it will be difficult to run replacements in the future. If you have an attic, basement, or crawl space, running replacement cables isn't a big deal particularly in interior walls, but it can be on tough in exterior walls. Who knows in ten years you might not want copper cables as the latest and greatest will be fiber.

Instead of multiple cables to fewer locations I would run cables to additional locations as you never know what you or future residents of the home will want to install and where. The downside of that is most people think WiFi is just fine and won't even use the Ethernet jacks or put any value on them when they buy your home.

2. Go with good quality solid copper Cat6 cable or the next step up.

3. To make your network reliable consider power requirements. If possible run dedicated AC power circuits for your primary Network rack. No GFI or ARC fault if the require either of those in your neck of the woods. Also plug your modem, router and primary switch into a UPS. Since starting to use UPSs five years ago my router can run for months without me having to reboot it. Only time I reboot it is after a software upgrade.

4. Consider how you are going to keep your equipment cool. Ventalation is important and running 60 - 80 watts or more of network equipment 24/7 can heat up a small area.

If I see anything else that might help you I will drop you a line.

 

[jalyst]

One thing I'm not sure of, is where exactly to place my 2 Wifi AP's, I had assumed 2 relatively central locations I had in mind will be fine, but now I'm not so sure.

Any advice on how best to work that one out? Both will have cat6a runs, and new power lines running to them (don't want to do PoE).

My sparky's are coming tomorrow to do the job, I've told them we might have to hold-off on 2 runs to the APs, & do them at a later time once I've worked this one out.

I have a sep. WiFi AP thread, but this isn't about deciding on what make/model APs to pick, but rather; where best to place them & to a lesser extent, how best to orient them.

I'll take a vid. later today explaining where I had in mind. Any "timely" advice on this is much appreciated!

 

[jalyst]

Here's the vid, too flat-out today with sparkies to upload earlier;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3rcszo3tybknvy5/20170403_173907.mp4?dl=0
Maybe I'll move it to my Wifi AP thread, which I'll revive very soon (but not before my Rack thread).

Most of the Cat6A runs are done now, just 2 more locations -each with one run.
That's for the 2 AP's, but we won't do them till I have the Rack, & maybe the AP's.

Later -if you're curious- I'll do a video of all the completed work?
Love to know how best to test that every single run, is running at optimal perf!

 

[jalyst]

I've realised I'm probably going to need a PoE switch for all of this, the one I got, I don't think it's possible to retrofit PoE into it?

This new PoE Switch may power 2* WiFi AP's, though I may yet power both of them directly via A/C outlets, YTBFD. It'll almost certainly power some Cameras & other PoE capable devices...

I don't want a tonne of ports, roughly about the same no. of ports as the last Switch I got, maybe less if possible? I guess I'll make it Managed too? I don't want to spend a tonne more than I spent on my last Switch, unless unavoidable!

Based on all of that criteria, can anyone recommend an excellent one to add???

I wanted to avoid PoE, as I was concerned about the impact it may or may not have on the peak perf. of my Cat6A LAN, but it's just so damn convenient! Perhaps more knowledgeable folks can explain why it's will or won't have any impact on perf? Pretty sure this was all explained once-upon-a-time, but I forget it all now. :-/

 

[degrub]

you can buy POE power injectors separate from the switch. Just make sure you get the correct one - high power range or low power range. It will be set by the draw from the AP or other device.

 

[jalyst]

Ah yes, I was vaguely recalling injectors. I don't suppose you can elaborate on some examples, & how exactly they might be put to use in my scenario? If you skim-read this thread, you'll note I have about 8* CAT6A runs, all running back to one location where I have (for now) 1* 16-port Gbe Managed Switch.

So they're totally isolated from the rest of the Switch, & thus will only inject power over the run(s) I'm wanting power, & hence not affect any of the other runs at all? And so only device(s) sending data over the power-injected run(s), could -potentially- be affected perf. wise?

I imagine the tolerances would be so high, that it'd be a long time (if ever) before I get anywhere close to noticing the perf. being affected, I don't even have any links within the LAN that are 10Gbe+ yet (but will soon enough). And even when I do, the times I'm saturating such a link would be so infrequent & unsustained, that it'd probably very unlikely it'd be noticeable, yeah?

Are injectors the best way to go in my scenario, or am I best-off just getting a dedicated PoE Switch?

 

[CaptainSTX]

WiFi Texas offers a full range of POE products. They also have a store on Amazon.

I purchased some injectors from them and they are rated for gigabit connections and have worked fine for me. I use the single device injector which has a DC input, LAN input and then a port where the DC and LAN are combined. The cost is $4.55 each and you need one at both ends of the Ethernet run. You supply the DC using the wall wart that came with your device.

Go to WiFi Texas web site as they have some tools which will help you determine the maximum distance at which POE will work depending primarily on the voltage you need. In my case I was using 12 volts to power an unmanaged switch mounted in my wiring cabinet and I wanted it to be connected and backed up from my UPS.

 

[degrub]

"you need one at both ends of the Ethernet run."

Mine only had to be at the head end (only one per ethernet drop). So switch--ethernet--POE inj===ethernet w/power====AP

 

[coxhaus]

The Cisco POE injectors I was using only needed to be at the switch end. One injector per wire. So no power was needed at the POE end.

 

[CaptainSTX]

"you need one at both ends of the Ethernet run."

Mine only had to be at the head end (only one per ethernet drop). So switch--ethernet--POE inj===ethernet w/power====AP

If you have a POE capable device at the far end only a single injector is needed. In my setup the switch was not capable of being powered by POE so I needed an injector at the far end to break out the power for that device.