Regarding the NETGEAR Nighthawk S8000 Gaming & Streaming Advanced 8-Port Gigabit Ethernet Switch

[AntonK]

Hi,

Assuming one doesn't need extra wired ports beyond the one on their wireless router, why would any home user buy a switch like this when they've got gigabit ports on their router?

Anton

 

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Marketing...

https://www.netgear.com/landings/s8000/

Feature set

• 8-Port Advanced Gigabit Ethernet Switch
• Low latency and QoS management for ultra-high performance
• NETGEAR mobile-optimized web GUI management of advanced features and port configurations (gaming, streaming, LAN, etc.)
• Sleek and modern design
• Industry-leading 3-year warranty

That - and gamer styled angular housings...

It's a lightweight managed switch - similar to their GS-108E, but with some sexy curves and a App for management.

The Netgear GS-108T-200 has more capability, and a lifetime warranty as a Pro-Safe device - and it's less impact on the wallet..

 

[System Error Message]

netgear msrp is higher than asus. I hope they changed that because even the 8 port asus AC5300 costs less than i thought it would.

 

[Magebarf]

...and a App for management.

Actually, even that part is pure marketing... I interpreted the same from reading the landing page, but then started looking around for what platforms the app was for.
If you read the "fine print" it is only a "mobile-optimized web GUI".

Apparently the "real" name is GS808E
https://www.netgear.com/home/produc.../Nighthawk-switches/GS808E.aspx#tab-techspecs
What they claim on the specs page is to have about a microsecond lower latency for regular traffic cases compared to a "Standard Gigabit Switch" and still maintaining almost the same latency on a congested network.

 

[Samir]

Hi,

Assuming one doesn't need extra wired ports beyond the one on their wireless router, why would any home user buy a switch like this when they've got gigabit ports on their router?

Anton

Only thing I could think of is that now that people do have wired homes, they do need switches and since managed switches are fashionable, they made a fashionable managed switch with asthetics to match their other high-end consumer gear.

Give me a plain metal box any day. I really don't like the 'I'm trying to be cool' nature of the consumer networking gear and computer accessories (keyboards!).

 

[Samir]

What they claim on the specs page is to have about a microsecond lower latency for regular traffic cases compared to a "Standard Gigabit Switch" and still maintaining almost the same latency on a congested network.

I'd like to see some reviews/tests to prove/disprove this. Otherwise, it's the best made-up marketing I've ever read!

 

[sfx2000]

What they claim on the specs page is to have about a microsecond lower latency for regular traffic cases compared to a "Standard Gigabit Switch" and still maintaining almost the same latency on a congested network.

How does one define a "standard gigabit switch"?

Hard to say/tell... some 8-port managed switches are slow, some are fast - unmanaged switches are typically faster as they have less overhead in any event - the price we might pay for the management functions...

Even then - the difference is minor at best...

 

[Magebarf]

Looking at their own specs for the GS-108T-200 they put the numbers at "less than 15 microseconds" latency for a 64 bytes packet when both coming in and going out on a 1000 megabit line.

The question is exactly what latency they are specifying for the GS808E/S8000, as they don't define the number. They only say 2.7 microseconds, in what I assume is best case, and 4.7 microseconds on a congested network, and then states < 3.2 microseconds in the table of latency for different speeds. It could be the delay before retransmission, even though it makes more sense to provide the numbers as they do for the GS-108T-200.

 

[Magebarf]

Also, I did see one alarming thing in the user manual, and that being Jumbo Frames locked down as enabled in the factory defaults... No mention what size is supported.
Out of the 8 ports, 3 of them comes preconfigured. Port 1 for gaming, port 2 for media streaming and port 8 for uplink.
A quick read did state that you could manually configure port priority and rate limiting for all ports however, so that does not seem to be locked down.

I'm looking forward to a teardown to see what chips are in this unit. Could explain what functionality could be stripped down to trim latency.

 

[sfx2000]

I just wouldn't want an "App for That", and it's not much different than other lightly managed switches.

That's ok - and that they're chasing a market, that's good too...

Wish them well - there's a lot of folks that are deeply wanting to separate money from their wallets - and to Netgear's credit, they've made a device that can do this for some.

 

[System Error Message]

locked jumbo frames are bad for gaming. If your intention is to improve gaming for FPS games, latency and packets per second matters most. Being able to send many small packets as fast as possible is what is required to boost gaming performance.

If you want to boost game performance for things like MMORPGs and RTS, than CPU is the main bottleneck. This can be helped with dedicated NICs that have their own CPU, Soundcards with their own CPU (creative have plenty of these but their drivers really suck) rather than onboard realtek, routers that do the anti virus and firewall for you while you play (though most just arent able to spot a virus directly). Ofcourse the game's programming is the main factor, how multi threaded is it and optimised when it comes to many players/ stuff in a small area.

There is no true middle ground for improving gaming performance. If a game is well coded for MMORPGs than it should use larger packets instead in which case even jumbo frames wont help. If the game is FPS and fast paced where latency counters than you want to get packets around as quick as possible.

The main upgrade to your online gaming are 2 things, your PC and your ISP. US Cable ISPs being stingy with your bandwidths and poor architecture leads to higher latencies and contentions. Ofcourse having a decent router helps gaming compared to a crappy one but it doesnt have to be a "gaming router" because the router in no part runs any part of your game. Even a mikrotik MIPS based routerboard. a ubiquiti ERL, a tp link AC1900 router all improve gaming performance if compared to a crappy ISP given router. The new line of VDSL routers in the UK that arent crap anymore actually do a good job for gaming. Wifi on the other hand, if you are gaming you want to be plugged into ethernet/SFP and not powerline, wifi or other copper based stuff.

There is really no gaming performance difference between a decent normal router (like the ERL, hex, tp link routers) to gaming routers like (asus and others). What really should be promoted are the looks as im sure many would buy your product if it looks like something from the game they're addicted to. Sure some routers like the CCR are an exception of being 1-2ms faster but thats because of their architecture, CPU connected ports, dual channel DDR3 and a good CPU architecture. Im sure even those cisco blade servers in T1 ISPs that route the internet would also be faster too, but gamers wouldnt even look at these routers for consideration to improve their gaming experience or spend the effort if they were willing to spend money on networking gear.

Nowadays its just hype over facts. First its with the router CPUs that dont run any part of the main OS, than its with the gaming hype. Unlike the dual ARM CPUs that have 2 sets of cores, both sets of cores actually run the main OS allowing them to be called quad core (2 sets of dual cores) and 8 cores (2 sets of quad cores).

 

[sfx2000]

locked jumbo frames are bad for gaming. If your intention is to improve gaming for FPS games, latency and packets per second matters most. Being able to send many small packets as fast as possible is what is required to boost gaming performance.

Path MTU discovery should solve that for the WAN side - but it's a good point for the LAN side - depends on the game I suppose...

The main upgrade to your online gaming are 2 things, your PC and your ISP. US Cable ISPs being stingy with your bandwidths and poor architecture leads to higher latencies and contentions.

Depends on the ISP - I'm fortunate for the moment that my ISP does try to optimize links where they can - both in-house and peering...

They don't have to - but they do where/when the can...

I just wish they'd fix their IPv6 issues - but that's off-topic, and it's like facebook relationships - e.g. complicated...

Ofcourse having a decent router helps gaming compared to a crappy one but it doesnt have to be a "gaming router" because the router in no part runs any part of your game.

Gaming is marketing - plainly put...

There are other people that prefer low latency on their routers - e.g. fin traders working from home as an example - and there, we do have other options - most gaming routers don't play well there.

Even a mikrotik MIPS based routerboard. a ubiquiti ERL, a tp link AC1900 router

Believe it or not - the Marvell based WRT is pretty quick at a low cost for routing - better than QCA/Broadcom - linksys firmware not withstanding...

uTik is well regarded - as is pfSense on x86 - even though on pfSense, some overbuild, which is also ok...

Depending the WAN side, the ERL series can be interesting as well - even though the sub-100 dollar versions might not be.

There is really no gaming performance difference between a decent normal router (like the ERL, hex, tp link routers) to gaming routers like (asus and others). What really should be promoted are the looks as im sure many would buy your product if it looks like something from the game they're addicted to. Sure some routers like the CCR are an exception of being 1-2ms faster but thats because of their architecture, CPU connected ports, dual channel DDR3 and a good CPU architecture. Im sure even those cisco blade servers in T1 ISPs that route the internet would also be faster too, but gamers wouldnt even look at these routers for consideration to improve their gaming experience or spend the effort if they were willing to spend money on networking gear.

Latency matters... what I've seen is many SOHO routers might be fast, but they're not "quick" in the latency realm - even going to the AC5300 class - they're just...

Nowadays its just hype over facts. First its with the router CPUs that dont run any part of the main OS, than its with the gaming hype. Unlike the dual ARM CPUs that have 2 sets of cores, both sets of cores actually run the main OS allowing them to be called quad core (2 sets of dual cores) and 8 cores (2 sets of quad cores).

Cores are part of it, but also the interfaces, and the 'special sauce' inside - but most, if not all, consumer routers - the routing is inside the SoC, so clock speed matters, but also memory bandwidth matters -- some gamer oriented routers have a fast clock, but skinny bandwith with lower speed memory - 16 bit path at DDR400/DDR266? Yeah, that's the WAN-LAN interface for most...

Anyways... there is that market segment that can appreciate angular housings and lots of antenna's... and that's ok...

Might be me sniping headshots over in some games with my intel based router/firewall...

 

[System Error Message]

The point is if a gamer is planning to spend serious money for network, the solution isnt a gaming router, its always a router used in a datacenter or corperate building as those things have really good latency, QoS and a lot of hardware to go with it. In the past pfsense wasnt used in homes, now more and more are using it in homes, same for mikrotik too. Ubiquiti's market segment has always been SOHO and homes. People are starting to see how good firmware and hardware actually work better than fancy consumer routers and for less.

Its sad that the low latency option isnt available in the consumer segment. Embedded design using the right CPU, ram, CPU connected ports, as small a footprint as possible, those switches that are configurable but also are geared to low latency that are usually used in data centers. Being able to configure and optimise your network is helpful too. Realtek NIC actually has lower latency than my dedicated NICs that have their own CPU, but to push lots of data through, if the CPU is fully pegged that doesnt help.

Latency does matter but what i meant was that a gaming router is no faster in latency than a normal decent consumer router. They all sport the same configuration, a switch behind a CPU and a design that isnt geared to the best latency. For better latency you really need hardware that isnt available in the consumer market. I'd love to see ASUS come out with a router using the 9 core TILE, 8 CPU connected ports, WAN port, SFP port, perhaps SFP+ and 2 Sodimm slots and DDR3 ram that is as fast as possible.

 

[sfx2000]

I'd love to see ASUS come out with a router using the 9 core TILE, 8 CPU connected ports, WAN port, SFP port, perhaps SFP+ and 2 Sodimm slots and DDR3 ram that is as fast as possible.

Or a Marvell reference design based on their ARMv8 arch - addresses the same concerns and wants there...

The marvells have always been rather nice - and then consider Xeon-D, where boards are getting affordable...

 

[Samir]

I'm probably dating myself a bit by saying this, but I remember when computers were just computers--no home systems, business systems, gamer systems, etc. There was just fast and faster--good and better. None of the marketing involved to make snail oil claims on basically what was the exact same machine.

Fast forward a couple of decades and today there are slight differences in the products in each niche--home being made cheap, business much more durable (but essentially the same design as home), and gamer systems which pull elements from both business and home to make the video fast (I'm sure a high-end cad station would be a great gamer system too). But these are essentially all still the same animal.

And one fundamental hasn't changed--the good stuff is the good stuff, and it's still more expensive, and it's almost always found in enterprise applications. You can actually get desktop stands for blade servers to use them as powerful desktops, which I'm sure they are. Even throwaway routers in the enterprise world blow the doors off of the smb and consumer routers people generally are looking towards as an upgrade. It's just a different world of performance--and it has to be because of the business dollars at stake.

I think the influences of form over function comes from those than feel these are more than just utilitarian machines (which they aren't). They don't have a soul no matter how much Apple wants you to believe it and pay for it. Sure, the magic of a great match between man and machine is something special (whether in cars or computers or a power tools), but to me it has never warranted form without function. And I guess that's the part of me that doesn't see the point in aesthetics that don't translate to pure performance. Form without function is the world of fashion and style--which to me doesn't make sense when merged with utilitarian goods.