setting up moca connections between two apartments... many questions!

[anoukaimee]

I've read quite a bit but really don't understand some things. Please forgive my ignorance here, and bear with me: really need help!

I've decided to cut the cord because I'm on a fixed income, and my best friend, who lives in the apartment above and on the other side of the eight-unit house/apartment building in which we live is going to share his Comcast bandwidth with me. The goal is to maximize coverage for me without eating up his speed. Since the house in which we live is quite old--we don't even have grounded power lines--my understanding is that powerline adapters are out. That leaves us with moca (right)?

I have an Asus RT-AC56U and use Asusmerlin, and a Netgear CM-500. He has an old modem (N300, don't know the brand), and rents his gateway from Comcast. The plan is that I give him my router and modem and then just connect wirelessly. He is a gamer, and is directly connected to his modem by ethernet, as well as his smart tv. He uses a wireless connection for his iPad, etc.

I have a laptop, Google Fi (which utilizes WiFi to keep bills low (VOiP?)), a printer, a Roku, and an external hard drive that I generally use for backups.

Note that one reason I want him to keep the router is that I've become quite the computer addict . I don't want to be able to reboot into admin/pw mode and override access control settings. Therefore, he'll keep the passwords etc., I'll configure parental controls for my devices, and all should be good (in theory, right)?

So I have several questions.

1) Do I need to have cable service for this to function? I have a coax outlet, of course.

2) How do I access the network wirelessly? Do I need a router downstairs, a repeater, a bridge, or what? And what is each technology, exactly?

3) Is there a way to access this through a router, etc., without being able to disable it (see mention above of need for access controls)? I'm guessing so.

3) Is there some alternative to doing all of this? I've seen DIY range extenders explained online. We've been doing this for a day, with some success, but not with everything enabled. He had a bit of a lag with his xbox (which again, is plugged directly into the modem), but he also has a weaker configuration (no AC). I have slow speeds, but no buffering on Netflix.

I know I'll need to modify QoS to prioritize and optimize all of our services, and figure out how to network this, but that's a different question.

If anyone can give me some advice on the above, I'd really appreciate it! I want to make it as easy on him as possible, while still getting the bandwidth I need to use my components. Please let me know if I'm being too vague or if you need more information.

Thanks much.

 

[thiggins]

First, Homeplug doesn't require grounded outlets. The latest AV2 MIMO adapters will use the ground line if it's available. There are also plenty of HomePlug AV2 adapters that don't have the ground plug.

However, powerline may be iffy in an 8 unit building, especially if you have your electric service (pay your own power bill). If there is a distribution transformer between you and your neighbor, it won't work.

You may face a similar situation for MoCA. It won't work through distribution amplifiers. It also won't work very well, or at all, if there are 900 MHz splitters.

The problem in both cases is that if you face either case, there isn't much you can do about it because you don't have access to the coax or power distribution systems.

The prognosis for successful sharing via Wi-Fi isn't good either since you are on opposite sides of the building. If you were on the same side, a pair of inexpensive outdoor bridges outside your windows, aimed at each other would work well.

If you have any chance of getting wireless to work, I'd recommend using 2.4 GHz and AC1750, AC1900 (3x3) or AC2600 (4x4), at least on the router side, better on both sides. If you can't afford that, use AC1200 on the other end. AC radios are better and the 4x4 configuration will provide more link gain, which should improve throughput.

Keep in mind for all this that you and your neighbor will be on the same network unless you put a router between you. That means either of you will be able to access the other's network shares if they are not password protected.

 

[anoukaimee]

Ok I get the gist of this, but a few things to clarify:

You may face a similar situation for MoCA. It won't work through distribution amplifiers. It also won't work very well, or at all, if there are 900 MHz splitters.

My friend would require a splitter since he is really going to need to be hardwired to preserve his xbox quality. He's paying for this, and I don't in any way want to impinge on his quality since he is helping me out and paying for this. But I wouldn't need one--I'd just need some wireless output connected to my end of the MoCA system.

I've read several other places that there are high quality splitters available that will work well with MoCA? This isn't the case, I take it? Or is it because I personally don't have a cable connection?

If you have any chance of getting wireless to work, I'd recommend using 2.4 GHz and AC1750, AC1900 (3x3) or AC2600 (4x4), at least on the router side, better on both sides. If you can't afford that, use AC1200 on the other end. AC radios are better and the 4x4 configuration will provide more link gain, which should improve throughput.

I had thought that the RT-AC56U had 3x3 MIMO, but I see that it doesn't now: 2x2 . It is dual band, though, and from a scan, no one else in the building has a 5.5 channel, which is good. Perhaps I should use that on my end and just purchase a better one on his end. It does have beamforming and NAT, but unfortunately no antennae, which I would think would be important for long range performance, but I don't know how well that works at such a long range. Do you know of a good 4x4 or 3x3, known for its range, at a price point around $150 or less (is there one)? Is it important to find another that has beamforming/NAT acceleration, and that can run on the same firmware for optimal performance? I'll research that, too, so no need to bother with answering unless one pops directly to mind.

This all makes my head spin. I have just enough knowledge of networking to understand the basic outlines, but not enough to carry it out. Would it be worth it to try out some technology first and see how it goes? My understanding is that you can return even an open box w/in 30 days to Amazon if you buy it from the right seller. Which technology would you suggest to try first: powerful router, powerline adapters, MoCA, before getting an expensive modem? Is there any point in trying a "wireless repeater" or such? If placed in our respective apartments, would they perhaps be helpful at all?

I'm not desperate for high speeds but do need the optimal configuration for the basics: minimal Roku buffering, internet browsing, and WiFi access for my Project Fi phone. While we were able to both connect fine last night at around 10p, I'm finding that today everything is buffering on the Roku, except for (what I expect to be) low bandwidth audio only NPR, etc. Can't watch anything else. This is using his N300 modem. So obviously need to connect AC-AC--I'm assuming neighbors using the internet now, at 6p, are the source of the interference. This isn't the end of the world: while it would be nice to have Netflix, etc., I usually watch TV up at his place anyway, and if I can at least stream radio and use the internet at the same time, I'm good with that. Maybe I can find some info on new radio tech somewhere else, too; maybe there's something that is static-less and more powerful than the old technology of which I know.

We're fine being on the same network. We're best friends. But thanks for the heads up!

If you can help me out with the above, would be a great help!! Thanks again for understanding my naivety here.

 

[thiggins]

There are higher frequency splitters. But EVERY splitter in the coax line between you and your friend must be high frequeny. Unless you have access to the building coax distribution system you can't check or change this. Even if you could, you would need permission from building management before mucking with anything.

You can look at manufacturer refurbs for lower cost gear.

All AC routers do beamforming in at least 5 GHz. But it doesn't increase range. NAT acceleration also does nothing for range.

Keep in mind you get higher throughput from AC only in 5 GHz, which doesn't go as far as 2.4 GHz.

A wireless repeater is a wireless bridge that can also retransmit to clients.

 

[Samir]

You may want to try something like an ubiquiti airwave product designed for long range. They aren't designed to go through buildings, but may be able to do better than wireless.

Powerline and Moca will both be pretty tough unless there's shared wiring. But that's usually only if there's shared billing, and I don't see that happening in an apartment building.

You can use phone lines using some products from netsys-direct.com, but again, there probably won't be shared wiring there either.

I think a specialized point to point wireless system is going to be your only bet.

Or something crazy like run a cat5 outside his window, around the building and into yours.

 

[anoukaimee]

You may want to try something like an ubiquiti airwave product designed for long range. They aren't designed to go through buildings, but may be able to do better than wireless.

Powerline and Moca will both be pretty tough unless there's shared wiring. But that's usually only if there's shared billing, and I don't see that happening in an apartment building.

You can use phone lines using some products from netsys-direct.com, but again, there probably won't be shared wiring there either.

I think a specialized point to point wireless system is going to be your only bet.

Or something crazy like run a cat5 outside his window, around the building and into yours.

Yep!

BTW their customer service can really, really suck if you're a newbie! You probably know they have a huge product line. I spent two hours online with this guy called Patrick who would just respond to my queries about specific products, whether they'd work or not, and he was just like "yup," "nope," "yup." And they all stick with the party line that you must have a total LOS, even though every forum I've looked at says that isn't a dealbreaker. Finally I said "listen, just suggest the optimal configuration!!!" and he still wouldn't, so I asked to speak with his supervisor. He was great. He suggested, based on my budget, trying to create a wifi hotspot first. If that doesn't work, will try the nanostation + an access point (although I'm still confused on what product to buy from Ubiquiti for an AP--they have dual band APs but not airMAX stations).

So got the Nanostation loco m5 and setting up tomorrow--wish me luck, and thanks, guys.
Got the nanostation m5 and setting up tomorrow. Wish me luck.

 

[sfx2000]

I've decided to cut the cord because I'm on a fixed income, and my best friend, who lives in the apartment above and on the other side of the eight-unit house/apartment building in which we live is going to share his Comcast bandwidth with me. The goal is to maximize coverage for me without eating up his speed. Since the house in which we live is quite old--we don't even have grounded power lines--my understanding is that powerline adapters are out. That leaves us with moca (right)?

Have you considered reaching out to the broadband providers in your area - in many states these days, and also as a result of consolidation/mergers - there are very affordable broadband plans available for those on fixed and low income - national and state/local programs are in place to ensure that everyone gets access - it may not be 100Mbit, but it's enough... sometimes it's 5Mbit down, and on a budget, that's better than nothing.

I'm not trying to be mean, please understand me, and you're working hard to try to reduce your costs... and on a fixed budget, totally understood - broadband is not a luxury, it's a necessity these days...

If you are on fixed/low income - it doesn't hurt to ask - and explore the discounts as well - you'd be surprised at what is offered out there - it's not advertised up front, you need to ask, but many providers do make it affordable... military/veteran discounts, union retirees, you name it... if you're on VA/SSI disability, there's programs there.

Why do I bring this up - I have a family member that is rural - he lives in the country, and he's in a similar situation - fixed income, and we found a way to get him very affordable broadband access - it's not very fast, and it's capped, as it's satellite in his case, but it's good enough for Web/Email/Social Networking - streaming video is likely out of the question, and voip is a challenge, but it works well enough...

Just takes some effort and homework..

 

[anoukaimee]

Have you considered reaching out to the broadband providers in your area - in many states these days, and also as a result of consolidation/mergers - there are very affordable broadband plans available for those on fixed and low income - national and state/local programs are in place to ensure that everyone gets access - it may not be 100Mbit, but it's enough... sometimes it's 5Mbit down, and on a budget, that's better than nothing.

I'm not trying to be mean, please understand me, and you're working hard to try to reduce your costs... and on a fixed budget, totally understood - broadband is not a luxury, it's a necessity these days...

If you are on fixed/low income - it doesn't hurt to ask - and explore the discounts as well - you'd be surprised at what is offered out there - it's not advertised up front, you need to ask, but many providers do make it affordable... military/veteran discounts, union retirees, you name it... if you're on VA/SSI disability, there's programs there.

Why do I bring this up - I have a family member that is rural - he lives in the country, and he's in a similar situation - fixed income, and we found a way to get him very affordable broadband access - it's not very fast, and it's capped, as it's satellite in his case, but it's good enough for Web/Email/Social Networking - streaming video is likely out of the question, and voip is a challenge, but it works well enough...

Just takes some effort and homework..

Yes... plenty of homework grrr.

Some states have their own plans, which is great: for instance, just over the bridge in WA, they've got great providers. Here, I have two choices: evil Comcast and crappy CenturyLink. Comcast would be good except they require that they don't go by income: their only criterion is that you have a child enrolled in a school lunch program. Their bandwidth would be fine. Maybe I'll adopt a kid.

CenturyLink is horrible, and horribly slow (here, at least); I qualified and tried out the equipment and realized that duh! my ancient phone wiring makes it impossible to even connect. So that's out.

Only other options would be hotspot cell providers, who are all too slow to stream video and cap your bw at like 1G.

They do have a lot more programs for rural situations (saw like 50+ in ND, etc.) because the FCC is stressing (for good reason) that this needs to be a priority. But where I'm at, my best hope is Google Fiber (assuming the house can even be wired for it: will pay landlord to do it!). They're talking about expanding to Portland (Oregon), but have been for the past two years with nothing more than "considering expansion."

So maybe in two years it'll be different. Regardless, I'd never go back to Comcast unless they change their low income policy, because billing and customer service is a nightmare. Spent eight hours creating a spreadsheet documenting all the ways they overbilled me (charging for modem when I had one, not negotiated rate, charging twice for installation, on and on), called someone all prepared, and very luckily got a great guy in Colorado Springs who agreed, yep, we messed up. Usually they just credit you, but was able to negotiate a $192 cash refund (even though they owed me about $250 in reality). Key is to document and be prepared.

Thanks though for the suggestion. Went to law school, and hate anti-trust cases, but should really read that 5-4 split where the Supremes adjudicated the case about Comcast/Time Warner not being monopolies. Just don't get it. Think it was a procedural issue or something, not substantive, because as far as I can tell, they are.

 

[sfx2000]

Some states have their own plans, which is great: for instance, just over the bridge in WA

portland/vancouver?

Know the area well... used to know a few folks that pointed yagi's over the river

(FWIW - Portland is a great town to visit and shop, and a great microbrew and strong tech scene/community - almost moved there from San Diego...)

 

[anoukaimee]

portland/vancouver?

Know the area well... used to know a few folks that pointed yagi's over the river

(FWIW - Portland is a great town to visit and shop, and a great microbrew and strong tech scene/community - almost moved there from San Diego...)

Yep! Big tech scene. Very happy here--moved from Midwest: people are great, and will take rain any day over snow!

 

[Samir]

Glad to hear the airwave bridge may work for you.

The other thing I was thinking--do you have any free wifi hotspots close by? Also, do you have a neighbor with wifi that's within reach? I'd just pay them $20/mo and let them let me log into their 'guest' access.