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The future of AC (Wave2)

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NismoZ

Occasional Visitor
So, the latest routers have come out, such as the RT-87U and R7500 Quad stream models, along with the newer, 3 network R8000 and RT-AC3200 (yet to be released).

My question is what will come next for Wave2? 160Mhz models next year?

Were the routers above supposed to come with 160Mhz wide channels? Can these channels be enabled via firmware for those routers?
 
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I doubt that current routers can get those features. Would need more hardware (chipset) support and more antennae.

What will come next is whatever the manufacturers think they can pass off as finished products.

I just know that anything higher than full Wave2 and more than 4 antennae will need to have at least all 10GBe ports to be useable for multiple clients. Otherwise? Not buying. The performance offered for such a configuration will only be forever 'potential' and never realized.
 
I doubt that current routers can get those features. Would need more hardware (chipset) support and more antennae.

What will come next is whatever the manufacturers think they can pass off as finished products.

I just know that anything higher than full Wave2 and more than 4 antennae will need to have at least all 10GBe ports to be useable for multiple clients. Otherwise? Not buying. The performance offered for such a configuration will only be forever 'potential' and never realized.

Thank for the reply. So, are the top routers full wave 2 right now, or are there features in wave 2 that are not available yet?

Understand your statement that anything the manufactures can sell, they will... The RT-87U/R still seems like it needs a few more months of development work, but it never stops them from releasing things early.

Reason for asking is that I have a Linksys E4200v2 right now, with a 3 stream 450 card in my desktop. The performance is still pretty good. With wireless AD not going to be a step fwd as far as room penetration and long distance coverage, I am wondering if AC Wave 2 should be my upgrade path.
 
"Wave 2" is more a marketing term than a formal definition.

The industry hasn't even enabled MU-MIMO on the current crop of 4x4 routers.

160MHz bandwidth isn't going to provide a practical benefit for the most users. It requires too may antennas and too much power on the client side. Clients will remain predominantly 1 or 2 stream.
 
"Wave 2" is more a marketing term than a formal definition.

The industry hasn't even enabled MU-MIMO on the current crop of 4x4 routers.

160MHz bandwidth isn't going to provide a practical benefit for the most users. It requires too may antennas and too much power on the client side. Clients will remain predominantly 1 or 2 stream.

Actually, won't moving to 160 MHz channel width allow them to increase throughput without the need for additional antennas?

Manufacturers need to at least start shipping clients that even fully exploit their released routers... This is getting quite silly that, by now, we still have no 4x4 client, and no MU-MIMO client either. We knew these routers were rushed out to market, but you'd expect that after 3-4 months, you'd at least have one client available out there to at least partly support those routers.
 
I'm not as up on consumer trends but in the enterprise wifi space, the next "frontier" is already here.

Evaluation of 802.11ad (WiGig utilizing the 60Ghz frequency spectrum) is underway. It's really designed for short-range, extremely high-bandwidth applications like digital media but the standard does allow for tri-band devices.
 
Actually, won't moving to 160 MHz channel width allow them to increase throughput without the need for additional antennas?
My error. You are correct. Hardware/chipset changes may be needed to support 160 MHz bandwidth due to different spectral mask.

At any rate, the eight 5 GHz channels required for a single 160 MHz wide channel aren't available many places in the world. And in the U.S. this would put everyone on the same channel. And for what? So a few home users can create higher bandwidth/ shorter range wireless bridges?

Manufacturers need to at least start shipping clients that even fully exploit their released routers... This is getting quite silly that, by now, we still have no 4x4 client, and no MU-MIMO client either. We knew these routers were rushed out to market, but you'd expect that after 3-4 months, you'd at least have one client available out there to at least partly support those routers.
You are correct that MU-MIMO should have been enabled when 4x4 routers started to ship. I can only guess that Quantenna is still trying to work out the kinks.

And how is the average consumer going to know that MU-MIMO is working?

4x4 clients are not gonna happen, though. Too many antennas to cram into a small space and too much power needed.

Go back and read this article. 11ac was never intended to create one big honkin' wireless pipe.
 
I'm not as up on consumer trends but in the enterprise wifi space, the next "frontier" is already here.

Evaluation of 802.11ad (WiGig utilizing the 60Ghz frequency spectrum) is underway. It's really designed for short-range, extremely high-bandwidth applications like digital media but the standard does allow for tri-band devices.
What do you mean it's already here? The applications I have seen are primarily in notebook docking with dedicated hardware. Video streaming isn't the focus anymore, or at least it hasn't been to date.
 
What do you mean it's already here? The applications I have seen are primarily in notebook docking with dedicated hardware. Video streaming isn't the focus anymore, or at least it hasn't been to date.

Yeah, I should have been more clear. I wasn't talking about streaming media. I was talking about HDMI and VGA wireless replacement, aka "wireless PC monitors". The practical applications I've seen so far are all similar to bluetooth, high bandwidth peripheral networking, just like you mention.
 
for 11AC - most of the improvements in the new PHY are already in with "Wave 1" - the rest will be incremental - mostly to improve capacity (MU-MIMO for example) - but these are edge cases compared to what has been deployed so far...

11AC has been fairly impressive so far, with far less pain than the 11N deployments.

11AD - wireless docking is a strong case for it - another would be squirting video around - e.g. from Handheld to TV for example, and things like wireless HDMI cable replacement....
 
11AD - wireless docking is a strong case for it - another would be squirting video around - e.g. from Handheld to TV for example, and things like wireless HDMI cable replacement....
It will be interesting to see if device makers give this a shot. Wireless USB never made it and Wi-Di / wireless display still isn't in wide deployment, at least not in a form that is widely interoperable.
 
at least not in a form that is widely interoperable.

That's the big thing right now, IMO. Some of the device manufacturers have a vested interest in limiting interoperability. I mean, I can't blame Samsung (for example) for not wanting to integrate all kinds of devices when they could use interoperability as a selling point to get you to buy Samsung phones, Samsung set-top boxes, Samsung smart TVs, etc.
 
11ac was never intended to create one big honkin' wireless pipe.

Tim, you're correct, it wasn't.

What it was supposed to do though is effectively transform wireless routers from acting as the now ancient hubs to a more modern switch. While each device is faster, up to a point, it is the total capacity of the wireless network that will increase to such a degree that anything running with only 1GBe ports will limit a 'true' AC Wave2 device from giving the full performance promised.


With an eight antenna router and multiple fully AC Wave2 class compliant clients, it would be like each device is connected to it's own router (almost), with a small number of (one antenna) clients.

With the 160MHz wide channels that are offered; doesn't matter how many routers are being used in close proximity. The channels and number of streams can be switched on the fly, per frame. Combined with the much faster (lower overhead) transmission AC wifi offers, limited channels are simply not as much of a problem as 2.4GHz 'N' class devices have turned into.

From the link on post 4 on this thread:

Second, 11ac products can use eight to nine 40-MHz channels, or four to five non-overlapping 80-MHz channels, or a mix of both. In fact, the least well-known 11ac feature is dynamic channel widths that can change per-frame. Like a carpool lane that sits empty while single-rider cars go nowhere in jammed adjacent lanes, bands statically divided into faster, wider channels are often underutilized. 11ac starts with primary channel assignments, but can expand and contract channel widths on each transmission, sending larger frames faster by borrowing otherwise idle airtime from adjacent channels.


We're nowhere close to Wave2. Even the latest routers available are struggling with Wave1 implementations and limitations.
 
We're nowhere close to Wave2. Even the latest routers available are struggling with Wave1 implementations and limitations.
Thanks for understanding and reinforcing the point I keep trying to make. The bigger numbers on the box aren't delivering any real improvement. 4x4 routers without MU-MIMO are a waste of money.

The exception is Broadcom's XStream technology, which does deliver higher total throughput in 5 GHz, without MU-MIMO. But vendors aren't getting the message through.
 
Thanks for understanding and reinforcing the point I keep trying to make. The bigger numbers on the box aren't delivering any real improvement. 4x4 routers without MU-MIMO are a waste of money.

The exception is Broadcom's XStream technology, which does deliver higher total throughput in 5 GHz, without MU-MIMO. But vendors aren't getting the message through.

Amen brother...
 
4x4 clients are not gonna happen, though. Too many antennas to cram into a small space and too much power needed.

The Asus EA-AC87U is supposed to be a 4x4 client.

Don't forget that they could still go with an internal antenna design for 4x4 clients. I can't remember if Asus showed any photo yet of the EA-AC87U, but interestingly enough it's currently two months late, with still no announced availability date in sight... And with USB 3.0 being able to deliver 900 mA, it should be enough to power such a client.
 
Tim, you're correct, it wasn't.

What it was supposed to do though is effectively transform wireless routers from acting as the now ancient hubs to a more modern switch. While each device is faster, up to a point, it is the total capacity of the wireless network that will increase to such a degree that anything running with only 1GBe ports will limit a 'true' AC Wave2 device from giving the full performance promised.


With an eight antenna router and multiple fully AC Wave2 class compliant clients, it would be like each device is connected to it's own router (almost), with a small number of (one antenna) clients.

With the 160MHz wide channels that are offered; doesn't matter how many routers are being used in close proximity. The channels and number of streams can be switched on the fly, per frame. Combined with the much faster (lower overhead) transmission AC wifi offers, limited channels are simply not as much of a problem as 2.4GHz 'N' class devices have turned into.

From the link on post 4 on this thread:




We're nowhere close to Wave2. Even the latest routers available are struggling with Wave1 implementations and limitations.

Could use. Emphasis on could. Very few routers support DFS right now and some clients don't support using those channels either (though they don't need to support DFS ability, just the channels themselves, though if they can do ad hoc, they'd need to if you can run those channels in ad hoc mode).

As it stands currently, for most routers/APs there exists 4 non-overlapping 40MHz chanels and 2 non-overlapping 80MHZ channels and exactly 1 160MHz channel in 5GHz. It is only if DFS is added in can you (in the right locations, which is most) get 8 40MHz, or 4 80MHz or 2 160MHz channels.

This is my issue, wave 2 with 160MHz support should be required to support DFS as MANDATORY if 160MHz is going to be a feature.

I do think with Wave 2 and 160MHz channels, especially as antenna counts creep up (at least for the high end routers) you WILL start setting LAG and/or 10GbE start becoming a thing, at least on these higher level consumer routers. I realize there aren't a ton of use cases, but even in the home, use cases where a single 1GbE port is a limitation is growing.

On my curreny Archer C8, 80MHz channel widths and swapping in 5dBi antennas over the 3dBi ones that it shipped with, reasonably close to the router I can sometimes get >60MiB/sec SUSTAINED transfer speeds to my laptop with an Intel 7260ac in it. As 3:3 clients become more common (which I realize will still be a bit more of an edge case) and as MU:MIMO becomes common, even home use where you can find >120MiB/sec of possible wireless traffic are going to become much more common, which makes a single GbE port a limitation (especially when you look at combined wired traffic to/from the internet and wireless traffic heading through a single router LAN port, possibly, to a person's wired network).

In a the next year, I doubt we will see anything like that. In just a very short number of years, I think we will see it happen. I think before 802.11ax (I think 11ax is the "replacement" for 11ac) 10GbE or LAG is going to be a requirement, except for the "low end" stuff (heck, I still see low end 11n with 10/100 ports and even a small number of low end 11ac products with 10/100 ports).

I see some promise in 11ad, but I think the issue still comes in that 60GHz is just so ridiculously easy to block it isn't that useful beyond "IR emitter" ability (though ridiculously high speed one). Wireless docking, AWESOME, especially if you can get even limited wireless power transmission. In room...it is only really useful if you can have the devices in relatively fixed positions and possibly don't get anything between them. Yes, I know the signal can bounce pretty well, but what if you accidently drop a pillow on the phone? Its probably going to smoother the transmissions completely. Cup your hand around it too much and likely the same thing, etc. Or walk in to the bathroom while on your phone and streaming something...

I would love to see 802.11ad deployed more widely either as a feature, or as an add-on (possibly using USB3 ports) for routers for line of sight wireless links. I could see something like an outdoor rated all-in-one USB chipset and antenna (and at 60GHz, it can be pretty small for something like a 24-30dBi parabolic/yagi, like just a few inches). Set it up, run the USB cord (outdoor rated of course) back to the router, plug it in to the port and setup your wireless link back to whatever you are connecting too (WISP, wireless bridge back to your house from your garage, whatever).
 
The Asus EA-AC87U is supposed to be a 4x4 client.

Don't forget that they could still go with an internal antenna design for 4x4 clients. I can't remember if Asus showed any photo yet of the EA-AC87U, but interestingly enough it's currently two months late, with still no announced availability date in sight... And with USB 3.0 being able to deliver 900 mA, it should be enough to power such a client.
Ok. If it connects via USB that would make one 4x4 client. But not a very portable one and more of a dedicated bridge vs. a compact client useful for mobile use like notebooks.
 
Ok. If it connects via USB that would make one 4x4 client. But not a very portable one and more of a dedicated bridge vs. a compact client useful for mobile use like notebooks.

I could still see it in some high end laptops, and certain in desktop cards. It is never going to be a common thing though.

In laptop cards, I see power consumption issues, though I guess with some nice power gating and other power saving features, most of the time it might not be bad, and one perk is, if the transfers get done faster, it is possible ALL components can then step way back in power states to save more power.

Most laptops don't really have THAT much in the way of space constraints for running antennas, even 4 of them. Though I'd think a mini-PCIe card, especially a half height one is going to find some issues mounting 4 antenna connectors, and the various other electronics, but I am sure it is doable with some creativity.

Really, I care a bit more about seeing Intel making a 3:3 802.11ac client (3:3 in 2.4 and 5GHz). That and seeing MU:MIMO becoming the de facto standard for clients and routers.
 
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