These types of Apple devices/services should be outlawed. No security fix is available at all

[Tech9]

If there is nothing nearby to communicate with AirTags won't provide any accurate location. Some people have to read first what AirTags are and what they can or can't be used for. I see a very wrong understanding of how this technology works. It's not like you drop it in someone's bag and it tracks them on a mountain hike in the middle of nowhere. If the "victim" or someone nearby doesn't have an iPhone or there is no network coverage - forget about AirTags. They just show the last known location. The same as Find My.

 

[sfx2000]

Thanks for continuing the conversation @sfx2000.

Just because there is worse, doesn't make AirTags, as they're implemented today, fine. Just shows how little manufacturers (particularly Apple which tracks everything) care about the huge negatives.

Again, the people who are most at risk are the ones without access to any devices to 'warn' them. That shows how big the 'security holes are in this application/implementation. This is what needs to be solved before these 'features/tags' became available. And I highly doubt Apple didn't know about this, yet they still brought it to market. To the risk of all.

The only true solution today is to stop/disable that tech. But that would cost manufacturers 'free' money, and we can't have that, right.

Any justification for having these types of devices without any real protection implemented first is just folly.

Unintended consequences perhaps - wouldn't be the first time tech has stumbled...

Apple has done a fair job of working thru the problems...

An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

Apple announced it has identified even more ways to update AirTag safety warnings and help guard against unwanted tracking of people and property.

www.apple.com

What to do if you get an alert that an AirTag, Find My network accessory, or set of AirPods is with you

AirTag lets you easily track things like your keys, wallet, purse, backpack, luggage, and more. Simply set it up with your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch and attach it to your item, and your AirTag shows up in the Items tab in the Find My app.

support.apple.com

Note that every AirTag is serialized, and can be tracked back to it's owner - if this is unwanted tracking, Apple is more than willing to work with Law Enforcement as needed.

If you find an AirTag - it's pretty easy to find out who it belongs to - as long as you have a compatable iPhone, you can query the tag under FindMy -> Items -> Identify Found Item

Remember, AirTags are not the only tracker out there - plenty of others that are more discrete and harder to find, and am I mentioned earlier, the options for unethical software installation or device management enrollment are still there...

The Android ecosystem has addtional challenges because of the ability to sideload apps - at present, this is at least one thing the Apple iOS/iPadOS doesn't have to worry about (yet).

As a tool - the Apple FindMy network has huge utility - whether it's finding a lost suitcase, a stolen Mac, sharing location with Friends - A year ago I was in Madrid (Spain), and forgot my iPhone in an uber we had used - without FindMy Network, that phone (a shiny new iPhone 14Pro at the time) would have been gone... we tried to ping the driver via the Uber App but he ignored us until we gave him his precise location and asked him again to return it... and he brought it back, and I gave him 20 euros for his trouble - key thing here though, it was the FindMy network that allowed me to track the device down and work to get it back.

Yes, I agree that there is a limited number of incidents where this has been used for nefarious purposes, but it's a pretty small number.

 

[sfx2000]

Some people have to read first what AirTags are and what they can or can't be used for. I see a very wrong understanding of how this technology works. It's not like you drop it in someone's bag and it tracks them on a mountain hike in the middle of nowhere. If the "victim" or someone nearby doesn't have an iPhone or there is no network coverage - forget about AirTags. They just show the last known location. The same as Find My.

If I really wanted to track someone down - it wouldn't be an AirTag for the reasons that @Tech9 has pointed out.

There are plenty of trackers out there that use GPS and 3G/4G data - and they're about the same price as an AirTag...

Just a quick glance - AirTags are not there - some of the accessories are, but not AirTaqs...

Amazon Best Sellers: Best GPS Trackers

Discover the best GPS Trackers in Best Sellers. Find the top 100 most popular items in Amazon Electronics Best Sellers.

www.amazon.com

 

[sfx2000]

There are literally millions of people without a phone or other tech gadget.

And there are a few that want to control the narrative - Apple has made themselves a fairly broad target, so we see astroturfing things like this...

Much like the whole iMessage thing with end-to-end encryption - governments don't like it, but can't do much about it, so they get others to pick up that battle - think about the kids.. That is not about CSAM or the kids - it's about end-to-end encryption, period...

Same goes with Google trying to shame Apple into adopting RCS - that will never happen, and the carriers don't want to support RCS anyways - it's about Google trying to pressure Apple into opening up the iMessage platform.

Again - it's about controlling the narrative - there's people that don't like the FindMy network, mostly because Apple got there first, and they control access to that Sandbox, much like the iMessage platform.

Features like AirTags and iMessage are there because people want them, they find value in them, and it does reinforce the relationship that Apple has with their customers.

 

[drinkingbird]

There are literally millions of people without a phone or other tech gadget.

I think that's one of the biggest concerns - people who have no phone who think they're somehow safe, an airtag dropped in their bag will still track them because everyone around them with an iPhone is acting as the tracking network. But of course the same can be done with a cheap GPS tracker and will be more reliable and accurate (though larger and harder to conceal too).

 

[Tech9]

because everyone around them with an iPhone is acting as the tracking network

If an AirTag is separated from the owner for a long time and moves around - it starts beeping. This is valid for other accessory devices on Find My network. As I said already - you guys have to read how AirTags work. It actually doesn't have to be an AirTag. Newer AirPods are also trackable and have the same unwanted tracking features. It's quite obvious none of you is using Apple products and you jump into wrong conclusions. If someone steals your wallet or you forget your phone in a taxi cab - it works. If you want to track a person or a car movements long term - it doesn't work. As mentioned above - this is not a GPS tracker. It's a personal accessory and it has built-in protection features for both the owner and potential "victim".

But of course the same can be done with a cheap GPS tracker and will be more reliable and accurate

Yes and no. GPS tracker needs satellite or mobile network communication available. This means open sky or urban area with more than one cell towers used for position triangulation. It may not be more reliable and won't be more accurate. AirTag can find a precise location in one room. You put your car keys somewhere and you don't remember where. AirTag will help, GPS tracker won't. The battery in an AirTag may last up to a year. It's a low power communication device. GPS tracker has to use high power communication, won't last for more than a week if similar size. You guys need to read more what is what and how it works.

 

[drinkingbird]

Yes and no. GPS tracker needs satellite or mobile network communication available. This means open sky or urban area with more than one cell towers used for position triangulation. It may not be more reliable and won't be more accurate. AirTag can find a precise location in one room. You put your car keys somewhere and you don't remember where. AirTag will help, GPS tracker won't. The battery in an AirTag may last up to a year. It's a low power communication device. GPS tracker has to use high power communication, won't last for more than a week if similar size. You guys need to read more what is what and how it works.

No reading necessary, have used both. GPS tracker works perfectly well with excellent accuracy under a car and indoors. Yes, needs to be charged every few weeks but you can set it to less frequent updates and get a month or two out of it. But it is realtime whereas the airtag could be hours or days behind depending when and where someone with an iphone happened to be near it. It never started beeping even after several weeks.

We're not talking about finding keys here, that's not the privacy concern.

 

[Tech9]

Do you have or use iPhone and AirTags? This conversation is going the way the previous one was going (about Apple products having Wi-Fi issues, remember?) - anti-Apple in general from what I've seen once or heard about other people saying. This is what we are talking about here - people unfamiliar with the technology warning others not to use it. Thank you anyway. Your care about others is appreciated.

 

[L&LD]

Do you read replies? Your obviously biased comments are tiresome.

 

[Tech9]

Biased comments with no knowledge and experience about the technology in subject are tiresome indeed. I read the replies and see no intentions to get familiar with the technology. There are posted official links with measures taken against unlawful tracking, but the goal here is sensation type news attention. Low credibility newspapers do this thing to attract readers. We continue using our AirTags, you continue living your life in fear. This is your problem to solve. Follow my advice - stay home, disconnect from Internet, reinforce the walls, stay away from technology you don't understand well. Better stay away from all the technology. Someone may be watching you from a mile away using simple optics. You have nothing to do about it. The risks of living in close proximity to other people. Go off-grid in the woods. Watch for bears.

 

[L&LD]

Yes, typical response. You may read, but you understand little.

No reading necessary, have used both.

We're not talking about finding keys here, that's not the privacy concern.

And your recommendations do little to protect anyone even if they follow your inane advice and tiresome strawman arguments that do little to move this conversation forward.

 

[L&LD]

Do you read the title? It says these types of devices and services. Apple is mentioned because it is the topic of the link I provided.

 

[Tech9]

If the company Apple is not in focus here, what about other trackers available? They are many. What about Samsung SmartTag, Tile multiple nano trackers, eufy SmartTrack, chipolo and 100+ more similar Chinese products. Are they any better? Why AirTag in particular has to be outlawed? How do you know one of the above non-Apple trackers is not attached to you somehow? I would like to hear the answers.

 

[jdabbs]

Let's say a company, Frapple, comes out with a new app--it opens your garage door without needing a key. It's a very helpful product. Unfortunately, this product can also open other people's garage doors even if they don't have the product. There's been a handful of sensational cases in the media of home invasions.

This is entirely hypothetical, so we can't write off concerns as anti-Frapple bias/astroturfing, or dismiss concern unless someone's researched the app to properly gauge its impact on society.

Applying some of the arguments in this thread to this scenario--


Tech9:
"What about similar products from other companies?" Well, do you think people are concerned about Frapple here, or that people can get into their garage?
"People are uninformed and being whipped up by fearmongers." The uninformed opinions argument can just as easily be wielded against the owner. As an attractive and successful Internet person, it's fair for me to declare your opinion is just as unqualified in this matter as anyone else. Likewise, the next Internet person can come along and say the same to me. Declaring opponents' ignorance is a weak position--counterargument strength comes from how well specific claims are addressed.

sfx2000:
"A determined attacker will be successful, tools or no tools" Not wrong, but I wouldn't draw the same conclusion. Walk into a bank--they likely have a security guard, cameras, restricted areas, and maybe a vault. Anyone with a squad of combat engineers can easily gain access. Why bother then? Well, it turns out that difficulty is a inherent deterrent. If something becomes less difficult, there's less of a deterrent and overall risk increases.
"What about similar products from other companies?" See response to Tech9 above.
"This is part of a campaign against Frapple by the government to coerce them into adopting US-govt favorable policies." Honestly, it's not fair for me to apply that to a hypothetical, because in my hypothetical scenario the Lizard People encourage strong opinions about corporations to distract nerds, kinda like how celebrities and tabloids work for others. Still though, the relative safety of a product is a distinct concern from campaigns about that product. I could walk outside with a sandwich board saying "you shouldn't eat spoiled meat" and the safety of spoiled meat is entirely independent from my motivations for wearing that board.

 

[drinkingbird]

If the company Apple is not in focus here, what about other trackers available? They are many. What about Samsung SmartTag, Tile multiple nano trackers, eufy SmartTrack, chipolo and 100+ more similar Chinese products. Are they any better? Why AirTag in particular has to be outlawed? How do you know one of the above non-Apple trackers is not attached to you somehow? I would like to hear the answers.

Apple is far from the only offender. My issue with airtags specifically was there is (or was) no opt in or opt out, even if you have no airtags and don't know what they are, they forced you into being part of their tracking network.

Any other company that has done the same (haven't heard of any but I also haven't used any of the other "tags") is in the same category in my view, no better or worse than Apple, but apple is the most common and high profile example currently.

I helped someone use airtags as well as a GPS car tracker for a very scary and similar domestic scenario being discussed in another thread. Honestly, considering the person being tracked had no apple devices, it was very unnerving to see how accurate and often the updates were. The GPS was better, but not by much (and it didn't go beyond where the car was obviously). Anywhere they went, could see a very accurate location, and I highly doubt every one of those phones that were tracking them had opted in or were owners of airtags.

Apple and Google are both evil, and MS is desperately trying to catch up. Ironically, Apple has become exactly what they rallied against in that infamous 1984 commercial. Google started the big brother/anti privacy stuff, but Apple took it to a whole new level. Google happily upped their game to match or nearly match (no forced participation in a tracking network yet that I know of though).

I realize you are an Apple user and feel like this is some sort of attack, but it is just a discussion of the various privacy concerns with trackers. Apple, by their own doing, is simply the highest profile and most common one.

Tile was arguably the first big one, but they did not have the ability to turn every phone into part of the tracking network.

 

[Tech9]

Declaring opponents' ignorance is a weak position--counterargument strength comes from how well specific claims are addressed.

Information about how the technology works, what anti-tracking measures were implemented for this specific product and what it can and can't be used for was already provided. The problem here is not the tracking technology, but Apple. If you follow the forum you'll see the same people post anti-"whatever they don't like" threads regularly. The thread name usually reflects what company they dislike. This is the case with this one, the same pattern.

they forced you into being part of their tracking network

Have you ever used Google Maps traffic information? How do you think it works?

I helped someone use airtags as well as a GPS car tracker for a very scary and similar domestic scenario being discussed in another thread.

Really? How did you decide who's wrong and who's right? Are you a judge? You know the purpose of such device is very different. Why did you assist someone to do something obviously illegal? Is the problem the tracking technology or... you? Have you ever torrented copyrighted content over Internet? You know it's illegal. Is the problem the Internet or... you? Have you ever driven a car over the speed limit? Was it the car the problem or... you?

I realize you are an Apple user and feel like this is some sort of attack

I already told you multiple times I have both iOS and Android devices in use. They are very similar in everything. I also have 120+ Chromebooks in use and 30+ Windows PCs in my business. Why "These types of Apple devices/services should be outlawed" and not similar Samsung devices? Why is AirTag the subject of this conversation and not SmartTag? SmartTag uses Bluetooth connecting to what?

 

[drinkingbird]

Have you ever used Google Maps traffic information? How do you think it works?

Already addressed in a previous reply, I am aware of the shared benefit. It does not pose any safety hazard to me, and I can turn it off anytime I want.

Really? How did you decide who's wrong and who's right? Are you a judge? You know the purpose of such device is very different. Why did you assist someone to do something obviously illegal? Is the problem the tracking technology or... you?

The trackers were placed on or in the property of the person doing the tracking. Legal counsel was sought and it was confirmed 100% legal and admissible in court. But the question being discussed here is not the legality of the technology, but the safety concerns. Obviously an airtag, or a gun, or a car, or a knife is never the issue, it is the people using it, but that is irrelevant, there are bad people who will do bad things. Is outlawing tracking (or guns, or cars, etc) the solution? No, I don't agree with that/the title. But you also can't just ignore the safety concerns and do nothing.

Have you ever torrented copyrighted content over Internet? You know it's illegal. Is the problem the Internet or... you? Have you ever driven a car over the speed limit? Was it the car the problem or... you?

Of course I have, and of course I do. For torrenting, it does not put anyone's safety at risk (other than my own if I'm not careful and get a virus) and it was stuff I would not have purchased anyway so didn't even take any money out of anyone's pocket. Speeding, sure, it is a safety concern, but that's why there are speed limits, radars, and police. I do choose not to drink and drive, or speed excessively when there is a lot of traffic or in school zones, others make other choices, and measures are taken to enforce and try to minimize the safety risk posed by those people. Obviously those measures do not work 100%. Also, at least the pedestrian sees the car coming and has some chance to dive out of the way before it kills them (of little comfort obviously), they don't just silently get pancaked.

I already told you multiple times I have both iOS and Android devices in use. They are very similar in everything. I also have 120+ Chromebooks in use and 30+ Windows PCs in my business. Why "These types of Apple devices/services should be outlawed" and not similar Samsung devices? Why is AirTag the subject of this conversation and not SmartTag? SmartTag uses Bluetooth connecting to what?

The same rules need to apply to all of them. I didn't write the title, like I said, Apple is in the news as they are the most common and there have been recent instances of it happening. Most people don't realize they are assisting in the tracking, and there is no obvious opt out. My google and samsung phones both require opt in to the service.

What is the solution? Maybe a law needs to be passed that the trackers beep once an hour, or day, or have an LED on them, or who knows. Maybe the phones/tablets/etc need to require opt in. Nothing will solve all the problems, and I highly doubt the technology will be completely outlawed. But in most cases you have to notify someone that you are recording them (audio or video), so I would suspect there will be some law at some point that states you must notify (or the tracker must notify) someone that you are tracking them, and your phone must notify you that it is actively tracking and reporting something and let you shut it off temporarily or permanently.

Maybe I'll develop an app that will run on any bluetooth device and tell you a tracker is nearby and make millions. Patent pending.

 

[Tech9]

Obviously an airtag, or a gun, or a car, or a knife is never the issue, it is the people using it, but that is irrelevant, there are bad people who will do bad things. Is outlawing tracking (or guns, or cars, etc) the solution? No, I don't agree with that/the title. But you also can't just ignore the safety concerns and do nothing.

What we can do about people using technology or tools against other people?

What is the solution? Maybe a law needs to be passed that the trackers beep once an hour, or day, or have an LED on them, or who knows.

Why is your solution related to the technology when obviously it's never the issue?

I'm an industrial electronics engineer. Working on SKK - Smart Kitchen Knife. It will come with microphone, accelerometer and eSIM for only $199. If SKK detects an argument and unexpected fast forward motion - 120dB alarm will sound and it will call 911 automatically reporting potential murder.

 

[XIII]

Apple is far from the only offender. My issue with airtags specifically was there is (or was) no opt in or opt out, even if you have no airtags and don't know what they are, they forced you into being part of their tracking network.

This article suggests that you can opt out of participating in the Find My network:

How to Stop Your iPhone and iPad from Participating in the Find My Network [Tutorial]

If you want, you can disable your iPhone and iPad from participating in the Find My network for ‘privacy’ reasons. Here is how you do it.

wccftech.com

(Although "participating in the Find My network" might have multiple interpretations)

PS: Find My is not limited to AirTags; it also used to track iPhones, iPads, Apple Watches, AirPods, and Macs.

 

[Tech9]

Of course you can disable Find My. You can also keep Bluetooth disabled. The tracking network is take a penny leave a penny deal. You don't want to help others - you can't track your own devices as well.