Tim, a thought on a VM test for the TS-x51

[wchpitt]

Tim, I have been shopping for both a new NAS and a UTM appliance...
when I stumbled upon the Sophos UTM Free home user addition.

I am thinking with a 651 and 4gb ram I could run the UTM as a VM and have the NAS act as both my storage and UTM and save money in the process. Would love to see this tested on the ts-x51 series to see how the VM would hold up and what type of throughput one would get with content filtering and AV scanning enabled.

Thoughts?

 

[thiggins]

Yes. Interesting thought. We will be doing a QNAP VM article and may explore this. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Bart]

Very interesting path to follow. Who knows, one day a NAS may also be able to replace the router (pfSense in a VM?). The way I understand it, is currently the x51 series is limited to one VM running at a time, but it's also a sort of "first generation product", so I'm guessing this will increase in the future. (granted, this may require beefier CPU's as well, most likely something from the i5 series).

 

[wchpitt]

Time, Any chance of giving it a try

Not sure if you still have the TS-451 or a TS-x53 in house but would you please try dumping the Sophos UTM VM appliance on one of these boxes and let us know if it works?
http://www.sophos.com/en-us/products/free-tools/sophos-utm-home-edition.aspx
ISO's are here: http://www.sophos.com/en-us/support/utm-downloads.aspx

 

[wchpitt]

Installing Sophos UTM on Virtualization Station

Yes. Interesting thought. We will be doing a QNAP VM article and may explore this. Thanks for the idea.

Ended up picking up a TS-451 for $499 and a 4GB mem module for $39
Drives in, up and running in 15m including the mem swap.

Create a Shared Folder called VMs
Download and copy Sophos UTM iso to VMs folder

In virtualization station:
Create VM
Create Custom VM
Name=Sophos-UTM
OS type=Linux
Core=1
Memory=2GB
Network=Dedicated 1 (Ethernet 2)
VNC Password=XXXX
CD Image=Sophos ISO file saved on NAS
HDD Image=New Image
Location=VMs
Name=Sophos-UTM
Size=100GB
<Create>

Select the new VM
Select Advanced
Expand Network
Select Add Device

Device Type=Network
Mode= Dedicated 1 (Ethernet 2)
MAC Address=<Generate>
Device Model=Virtual Gigabit Ethernet
<Add>

Once set up you can just Start the VM
Select Console and follow the DOS prompts
Make Sure you set the IP/Netmask and Gateway for your existing network or be prepared to do a physical connection on the default subnet (192.168.2.x) with the UTM GUI being at 192.168.2.100:4444

Running the UTM
AND
Running 3 RSYNC backups to the QNAP
AND
Still Syncing Drives in Raid5
AND
A single host passing traffic through the UTM

I have bumped my head on CPU a couple of times and gotten just above 80% memory utilization.

I will put the UTM in front of the whole household once the Initial RSYNC backups and Raid5 Sync finishes and report back.

Household=
5 Macs
3 Rokus
2 ATV
2 NAS
5 Phones
3 Tablets

PS: If I was making the buying decision today I probably would have spent the extra $150 for the TS-453-Pro just to have the extra Physical ethernet ports and the extra cores for the VM. Still TBD once things settle down on the 451 though.

 

[wchpitt]

Continuing thoughts on TS-451

Now 4 days into setting up/configuring/utilizing the TS-451.

Have tried setting up Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Mint and Zorin.
While they will all install and run in a VM with 1 core and 2GB ram, the only distro that is fluid and not choppy is the Xubuntu distro. Granted the Custom VM only goes up to Suse Linux Enterprise Server 11 and the current Ubuntu version is 14 (not sure if that makes any difference though)

You also need to make sure that when you create the custom VM you select VMVGA support under video (After you create the VM but before you start it)

An apparent bug (very minor) is that when you have started the VM but try to use the QNAP Console it has a radio button you may select to make a given video rate the saved default... but it doesn't save it and you have to select it again next time you start the console from the QNAP interface. Using the built in Remote Desktop in OSX works fine as well as do other OSX VNC viewers.

I am using Backup Station on the QNAP to try to back up a ReadyNAS Pro6. QNAP does NOT include a RSYNC Pull so I had to go to the ReadyNAS and create a RSYNC Push job to the QNAP. It failed on all of my Large Folders (500 GB to 1.3TB) but completed jobs with small test folders. Ended up using RRTR over FTP from the QNAP to the ReadyNAS and all Three large folders completed with some minor errors. (e.g *.vmwarevm files and .temp files)
Also another bug!? The RRTR job logs truncate when they get to large and the system references checking the main logs but when you select the link, no logs found for RRTR.

Considering what I want to do in the long run:
1) support raid6
2) use the Sophos UTM virtual machine as a home gateway
3) Replicate the Files and Folder structure on my ReadyNAS-Pro6
4) Utilize my existing stockpile of 2TB drives
I have come to the following conclusion (albeit using very seat of my pants testing)

With Media Station generating thumbnails (process utilizes ~17% CPU), running the UTM for the household in a VM (and requiring a virtual ethernet for the UTM) and one of the RRTR jobs running the QNAP CPU is hitting 90% plus on more than occasional basis. With 4GB of memory installed it is hitting 50-80% utilization. Additionally I am still not able to run a second VM (it will start but you don't want to use it)

So, If you only need to run one VM, not running a UTM as an appliance and/or are on a budget, the 451 is an amazing little box (especially with 4GB RAM).

For me wanting Raid6 using 2TB drives and needing more than 3.8TB space, wanting to run a UTM with physically separate ethernet ports and running low on both CPU and RAM resources... I am going to return the 451 and pick up a 653. 4 Cores, 4 ethernet ports and 8GB RAM with six 2TB drives will get me to where I need to be.
(I wont run 3TB+ drives in raid5 - http://storagemojo.com/2010/02/27/does-raid-6-stops-working-in-2019/ )

The only features I miss on this little box are:
No XRAID, Hybrid Raid, Dynamic raid (ReadyNAS, Synology, Drobo)
No RSYNC Pull (ReadyNAS)
A QNAP Roku station to utilize transcoding (Synology)

 

[ynohtna]

Thanks for these postings

I got a scare with my Pro Pioneer recently with a bad drive (but not bad drive cause replugging everything resync'd and all ok right now)

I use iscsi on it for VMs, I use rsync to pull/push data. Those are really the most important thing.

But now I'm probably looking to bring in something new to be the workhorse over my pro pioneer (and probably retire my little NV+)

The VM thing is very interesting, I'd like to run pfsense on it as right now I have an old laptop running it, though sophos is new to me and may be something to consider.

Are they serious about the raid5/6 issue in 2019? 3TB drives no good really?

If no rsync with qnap, what do they use then?

Thanks for so much information you've been posting.

 

[wchpitt]

The VM thing is very interesting, I'd like to run pfsense on it as right now I have an old laptop running it, though sophos is new to me and may be something to consider.

Are they serious about the raid5/6 issue in 2019? 3TB drives no good really?

If no rsync with qnap, what do they use then?

Thanks for so much information you've been posting.

Be very careful in your choice.
The ReadyNAS 516 has a 5 year next business day replacement warranty.
It is also unique in that between Syn, Q and ReadyNAS that is the 516 has the ability to do a RSYNC Pull backup. Adding a a 5 year warranty adds $400+ dollars to both Syn and Q and your options are 5 business days or 24hour advance replacement. The Q does NOT have the ability to add larger drives as prices fall and increase your storage. It is a pretty straight forward RAID migration process. It is why I was very specific in what I wanted the NAS to do for me. The ReadyNAS CAN run a VM although not natively in the GUI but the CPU does have the ability and it can do it with CLI configs. My only real beef with the ReadyNAs is I don't like OS6 (and this is very subjective). From a storage standpoint it has it all, warranty, data integrity, tech support but that is not what I was looking for in a HOME NAS. Choose carefully and make sure you consider what is most important to you. If ReadyNAS OS6 had GUI support for VMs I would seriously consider dealing with the OS6 limitations.

As for using ONLY Raid6 with 3TB+ drives... yes, Raid5 just doesn't fit in my comfort zone once I dip my toe into 3-6TB drives.

 

[ynohtna]

Thanks.

I didn't realize it was 5 year replacement warranty. I just know I was very happy with my NV+ and Pro Pioneer in terms of reliability.

I'm ok with not increasing storage because of the 8 years so I have NAS, I never expanded. I like to max out with enterprise HD and then leave it.

There is no sort of pull back up from qnap at all?

I also like that qnap is supporting some sort of syncing to onedrive whereas nothing like that available from netgear at this time.

Maybe what's most important to me is continuity of existing set up.

 

[wchpitt]

Needs vs Wants

Thanks.

I didn't realize it was 5 year replacement warranty. I just know I was very happy with my NV+ and Pro Pioneer in terms of reliability.

I too have been impressed with the ReadyNAS reliability. First unit died at 4.5 years but ReadyNAS had a replacement on my door step the next day and its been going for 3yrs now. The rack mount units in our DC have been going for 5+yrs


*"I'm ok with not increasing storage because of the 8 years so I have NAS, I never expanded. I like to max out with enterprise HD and then leave it."

Then XRaid holds no value prop


*"There is no sort of pull back up from qnap at all?"

There is. You use RTRR. You enable FTP on your old ReadyNAS and the QNAP and then set up a RTRR job on the QNAP to pull data via FTP from your old Pro or NV+


*"I also like that qnap is supporting some sort of syncing to onedrive whereas nothing like that available from netgear at this time."

I agree. BUT... QNAP does not have a "OneDrive Station" although they do support Azure . Currently Just Google and Drop box plus others, see: http://www.qnap.com/i/en/app_center/index.php?middle_place=1&type_choose=Backup/Sync .


*"Maybe what's most important to me is continuity of existing set up."

Then I would probably do a ReadyNAS 516. It still gives you RSYNC Pull, 5yr warranty and customer support that will answer the phone and have a replacement unit out to you next day should the need arise. My decision to use the QNAP was the ability to expand to 8GB RAM, ability to run VMs and some of the other features. If I was looking for a "NAS" I would buy ReadyNAS again. What I am shopping for this time is a multi function storage appliance which is where the ReadyNAS falls short for my needs. ReadyNAS OS6 still irks me as well.


My point is make a list of "Must Have" and "Nice to Have" requirements and then check off for each brand. I hear you saying "Reliability" and "Continuity" as Musts (Is warranty and Voice support in here too?) and VMs and OneDrive as "Nice". Is RSYNC pull and Must or Nice? etc...
Was so nice to be able to call ReadyNAS and have a replacement next day at the 4.5 year point. To get close to that with the QNAP requires a $600+ extended warranty.
For MY current NEEDS the QNAP is the clear choice. I want to buy Netgear but I need to buy QNAP.

 

[mdgm]

The Pro Pioneer does support RAID 6, but if all drive bays are full to switch to using this you would need to backup your data and do a factory default (wipes all data, settings, everything) and restore data from backup. Would be a good thing to do when you want to move to higher capacity disks. Remove the current disks (label order) after doing the backup, and do the factory default on the new disks.

Users have been installing VirtualBox on ReadyNAS units via the shell for years (though we don't support this). Running VMs directly on the NAS is popular with a number of prosumers. Some users have:
1. Updated BIOS to latest
2. Replaced CPU to one that has VT-x (the Pro 6 comes with such a CPU but not the first-gen Pro models such as your Pro Pioneer). VT-x is needed to run 64-bit VMs. There is a long thread on replacing the Pro CPU on the ReadyNAS forums
3. Upgraded to 8GB (2x4GB) RAM

Of course replacing the CPU is a warranty voiding modification, but that has probably expired by now anyway.

The 516 comes with an Ivy Bridge dual-core CPU that has VT-x and 4 GB RAM. The 716x has A quad-core Ivy that has VT-x and 16GB RAM.

 

[wchpitt]

A new Niggly/Missing feature on the QNAP 4.1.1

No XRAID, Hybrid Raid, Dynamic raid (ReadyNAS, Synology, Drobo)
No RSYNC Pull (ReadyNAS)
A QNAP Roku station to utilize transcoding (Synology)

Have a NEW feature to add to this.
QNAP file station does NOT support mounting a network drive... Synology does.
REALLY want this feature right now on QNAP 4.1.1 !

 

[Bart]

@wchpitt: thanks for your posts, they are very infomative. I've been wondering, did you swap your x51 for a x53 now, and did you already try Sophos UTM with it? Very curious to see how that pans out.

Also thanks for pointing me towards the fact that Qnap doesn't seem to have alternative RAID engine onboard. I never really paid any attention to this, but I realise now it is important to me.

I'll also have a close look to the ReadyNAS range. So for I've only looked at Synology/Qnap really, with a slight preference towards QNAP because they used more powerful CPU's. I guess I also really want a NAS that is good at real-time transcoding using Plex, but I guess there is no NAS out there yet that is able to do this in hardware.

Please keep us updated of your future endeavours. Very informative! Thanks!

 

[wchpitt]

@wchpitt: thanks for your posts, they are very infomative. I've been wondering, did you swap your x51 for a x53 now, and did you already try Sophos UTM with it? Very curious to see how that pans out.

Also thanks for pointing me towards the fact that Qnap doesn't seem to have alternative RAID engine onboard. I never really paid any attention to this, but I realise now it is important to me.

I'll also have a close look to the ReadyNAS range. So for I've only looked at Synology/Qnap really, with a slight preference towards QNAP because they used more powerful CPU's. I guess I also really want a NAS that is good at real-time transcoding using Plex, but I guess there is no NAS out there yet that is able to do this in hardware.

Please keep us updated of your future endeavours. Very informative! Thanks!

Bart,
Yes, I have swapped out the x51 for the x53 (TS451->TS653)
Couple of hiccups... QNAP does support migration from Raid5 to Raid6 BUT only from a 3 drive Raid5 setup so I couldn't migrate from 4 to 6 disks without a full redo. Doh!

Realtime hardware transcoding is supported with the Synology Play series, the QNAP x51/x53 series as well as ReadyNAS 5xx series.

As for the VMs, I now have the Sophos UTM bound to eht03 and eth04 on the TS653 and acting as my residential UTM gateway (1core/2GB) and Win7Ult running bound to eth02 (1core/2GB) and with 4 users (two streaming) Rsync from remote nas, Gateway running and working on the Win7 desktop via VNC total cpu is running 30-60% and memory anywhere from 18-70% but no hiccups, slowdowns or issues once I had it all sorted out.

I could have upgraded CPU and RAM in my long out of warranty ReadyNAS pro6 and install vbox via cli (and run Sophos with virtual interfaces) and gotten OS6 up and running but thats a lot of work to put into EOL hardware that is really not longer supported.

My only real issues with the QNAP
Unable to mount network share in File Station
No RSYNC Pull support in GUI
No Hybrid Raid (and the reason I miss this one is because WHEN drives fail I replace them with the current $100 street HDD which last week was 2TB drives for $96 and this week I am seeing 3TB drives for $109) The reason this matters to me is that with the ReadyNAS I never really upgraded... it just migrated. as the original 500MBs failed I put in 1TBs and as the 1TBs failed, 2 TBs. My Raid 6 volume just kept expanding ahead of my data storage needs. With the QNAP when I look like Im going to bump my head, I will need to make a purposeful decision and budget time and backups for a full upgrade.

So for now... I have settled into the TS-653 and it will suite my needs for a while. For me it was the best balance of need fulfillment's but there was no free lunch this time around. I paid $ for this balance and I hope the QNAP will serve me as long and reliably as my ReadyNAS has.

On a side note... I opened 3 tickets with QNAP. One I closed myself within 24hrs (RTFM - assigning eth interfaces to VMs) one they updated after 72 hours (mounting remote shares (cli or gui) and having them visible within FileStation) and one remains open (Day 5 no ability to add a device of type sound card to VMs)

Synology got back to all my tickets in under 48 hours and Netgear was always under 24 hours (to include a new unit showing up at my door) So you may want to factor in how import support is to you as well.

 

[Bart]

@wchpitt: sorry for the tardy response, I lost track of this thread...

But I glad I found it back, because the info you provide is once again very informative and could be of very good use to me. Thank you!

 

[wchpitt]

Things that make you go Hmmmm

Bart,

No problem. And how funny is this? When I went to respond to you, at the top of the SNB page was this: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/nas/nas-howto/32558-how-to-use-a-qnap-nas-as-a-utm
AND
Its a QNAP sponsored article. I wish they had sponsored me... with better support. Seems QNAP appropriated the idea without even a mention of the origin of the concept.

Bill

 

[Bart]

Indeed! To be honest, It was actually that article that made me realize I had already asked you that very same question (and had forgotten to check for the answer ) , and if I'm not mistaken, asked Tim if he could test that out too. I'm glad he did, but indeed, it's not very hard to think where he got the idea from.

Hey, in my book, you were the first!

Cheers!

 

[wchpitt]

Wasn't paying attention

I didn't realize that the SNB team had done the writeup. I only saw QNAP-Sponsored in dark black when I looked at it... after reading your reply and went back and scanned for the articles author and the only reference I see is in light grey "SNB CC TEAM" so maybe this was indead Tim and company doing the testing as I had asked and SNB just being able to get QNAP to comp them for the time and space. If this is the case, I am far less offended.

The only real miss in this is that one is able to accomplish this using a x51 series as well, although you will have to give up some physical security to do so.
One is able to create a second virtual interface on the second physical ethernet port and then connect both port 2 on a x51 and the cable modems ethernet port to a switch that shares a common network with your local LAN. The UTM could then route between the physical interface and the virtual interface through the same port on different subnets. Not ideal, but possible if your on a tight budget. I had this configuration up and running in testing with a TS-451 with 4GB ram.

 

[Bart]

Yes, I can see how that would work too. But on the other hand, would you really want to use this hardware for such a purpose? (x51 series I mean) Even if you are on a tight budget, this is probably going to frustrate you. The fact that the x53 series uses a quad core CPU as compared to a dual core in the x51 series, effectively giving you a lot more processing power, should also be considered here. We all know that, when using virtualisation, the most important feature is a lot of memory, quickly followed by a powerful cpu.

I don't think I would attempt running such a setup for any other purpose than testing.

Thanks for sharing!

ps. This made me wonder, if Sophos worked, then PfSense will probably work too, or Untangle. Ahhh... new things to play with!

 

[wchpitt]

pleasantly surprised

Actually...
using an x51 device with UTM is not awful. As long as you are not trying to do a large file transfer or read from the NAS while using the UTM it is OK (sic). Do both at the same time and it will hit 90% CPU but this is not typical for concurrent use and as a backup/datastore and a UTM it works well enough.

My household is far from typical from a usage standpoint, but for many a home user an x51 would probably get the job done 90% of the time. Would I ever recommend this as a solution to a paying customer? NO! Would I encourage a technically adept home user to give it a shot... sure.

For $400 street you could have a Raid6 with 4 3TB drives and an UTM gateway for under $900. Thats pretty good. And, no annual subscription costs. Personally I would spend the extra $ on a x53 series... but thats my sense of value!

What I want is Readynas level support and build quality, with QNAP hardware features and Synology interface OS. Ah... to dream!

Build that unit and I would be willing to pay a 20-30% premium for it!