Advice Needed

[MarkyR74]

Hi, I’m after some advice. I very recently got gigabit fibre installed, I am with Squirrel Internet in the UK, very good support from them. I have been through loads of router and WiFi systems over the years.
With my gigabit fibre I thought I’d try WiFi 7, so I got a TP Link Deco BE65 system, fantastic design, fast, but it would drop IPV6 after 30 minutes, well the online IPV6 tests would not work, and so I’ve sent it back.
The ISP Zyxel router works perfectly fine with IPV6. I spoke to one of the support chaos at Squirrel and he said he uses Mikrotik Hex and Ubiquiti AP’s with no issue. I did look at them but want something a bit better.
So I am split between waiting to see what the Asus BQ16 is like, and if it works with IPV6 properly. Or a pair of Alta Labs Pro access points and a router which will plug into my ONT, have POE+ ports, and have ports of 2.5GB at least, have at least a gigabit throughput on the router with security features enabled. And it must be no bigger then a 8 port router, I would get a Ubiquiti Dream Machine Pro but it is far too big for the location although maybe I could mount it with its back against the wall? Behind ur table in the hallway, that’s where my ONT is.

At present I’ve got my Squirrel router plugged in, then a pair of Eero Pro 6 routers set up in bridge mode so they only act as AP’s, seems to be working, but I then lose the Ethernet ports I need upstairs as I use an Ethernet backhaul, and I am stuck with gigabit speeds, the TP Link gave me just over gigabit, I also lose 6GHZ WiFi. I did try my Eero’s directly connected to the ONT but then none of my devices even got a Router IPV6 address so naturally all IPV6 tests failed.

I’ve had Ubiquiti before and found it a real chore to setup the Unifi AP’s and get them working properly, I gave up in the end. So maybe the Asus will be better but I don’t know if it will work with Squirrel’s IPV6, although they have a lot more settings to try. Any advice appreciated.

 

[TheLostSwede]

spoke to one of the support chaos

Question, why do you need IPv6? Especially on your LAN, it's just harder to work with when you want to find your devices on the network.

 

[MarkyR74]

Question, why do you need IPv6? Especially on your LAN, it's just harder to work with when you want to find your devices on the network.

Because it's 2024 and in the UK ISP's have supported IPV6 for several years now, and so I'd like to use it. Plus some gaming services benefit such as any Xbox service as they are built to use IPV6. I don't see why a router in this year shouldn't be able to support IPV6 especially over DHCP.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Because it's 2024 and in the UK ISP's have supported IPV6 for several years now, and so I'd like to use it. Plus some gaming services benefit such as any Xbox service as they are built to use IPV6. I don't see why a router in this year shouldn't be able to support IPV6 especially over DHCP.

Sure, for your router, not a problem, but why would you not run NAT like a sane person and use IPv4 for your LAN?
Support is not the same thing as it'll work well, especially not when implemented by a company like TP-Link that offers a massive three firmware updates for most of their routers, before making a new hardware revision and dropping the older one like a hot turd.
You expect too much from the companies that make these devices as well as the companies that makes the chips that goes inside them.
And yes, I used to work for one of them some years ago, so I know how the industry works. Just because the chip vendor says something works, doesn't mean that it actually does when you deploy it in the real world.

 

[MarkyR74]

Sure, for your router, not a problem, but why would you not run NAT like a sane person and use IPv4 for your LAN?
Support is not the same thing as it'll work well, especially not when implemented by a company like TP-Link that offers a massive three firmware updates for most of their routers, before making a new hardware revision and dropping the older one like a hot turd.
You expect too much from the companies that make these devices as well as the companies that makes the chips that goes inside them.
And yes, I used to work for one of them some years ago, so I know how the industry works. Just because the chip vendor says something works, doesn't mean that it actually does when you deploy it in the real world.

Thanks for the advice but I’ll stick to my plan to use IPV6, also TP Link Omada seem to be supported well. But I won’t be using their Deco now anyway. Do you have any further advice other then I shouldn’t use IPV6 as that’s not really helpful to me.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Thanks for the advice but I’ll stick to my plan to use IPV6, also TP Link Omada seem to be supported well. But I won’t be using their Deco now anyway. Do you have any further advice other then I shouldn’t use IPV6 as that’s not really helpful to me.

You're aware this is an open forum, right? I don't work here and any suggestions are my own, which you're free to do whatever you want with.

I used to work in the industry and I have some insight to what's going on and I'm simply saying that a lot of promised features aren't always implemented properly and it could depend on several reasons. As a user, you expect things to just work, but this is sadly not how it works in reality.

 

[Tech9]

he said he uses Mikrotik Hex and Ubiquiti AP’s with no issue. I did look at them but want something a bit better.

And you started looking for something better than SMB market products in... consumer market products? Most high-end consumer products are released in a rush to beat the competition with features advertised "coming soon" and some in reality will never come for the life of the product. It's a false advertisement infested market.

 

[MarkyR74]

You're aware this is an open forum, right? I don't work here and any suggestions are my own, which you're free to do whatever you want with.

I used to work in the industry and I have some insight to what's going on and I'm simply saying that a lot of promised features aren't always implemented properly and it could depend on several reasons. As a user, you expect things to just work, but this is sadly not how it works in reality.

Sure, but how is that answering my questions. I know I stated any advice appreciated, but I didn’t expect a rundown on how the router industry works. Just some advice on what equipment to use. Is that too difficult to ask?

 

[Tech9]

Just some advice on what equipment to use.

I wouldn't jump to Wi-Fi 7 products at this point. I also don't use IPv6 on any of my networks home or business since I see no dual-stack benefits when public IPv4 addresses are readily available around my place. Here in Canada even mobile phones get public IPv4 addresses. Last time I checked Xbox was working just fine with IPv4 only. You have some choices to make and adjust your expectations if you go with consumer products. Prepare for lengthy beta testing and potential disappointments in the process.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Sure, but how is that answering my questions. I know I stated any advice appreciated, but I didn’t expect a rundown on how the router industry works. Just some advice on what equipment to use. Is that too difficult to ask?

I was simply trying to explain that there might not be a simple solution to your problem, as you're doing something that most likely isn't supported by consumer routers.

 

[Tech9]

Is that too difficult to ask?

It is quite common folks ask questions, but refuse to accept the answers. One single setting on your Internet facing device fixes your "issue" instantly. You don't have to replace your hardware, you don't have to waste time and you basically lose nothing. Few firmware updates down the road you may try again your preferred settings.

 

[jerry6]

you don't want advice you want confirmation . Sorry on ignore you go

 

[MarkyR74]

I wouldn't jump to Wi-Fi 7 products at this point. I also don't use IPv6 on any of my networks home or business since I see no dual-stack benefits when public IPv4 addresses are readily available around my place. Here in Canada even mobile phones get public IPv4 addresses. Last time I checked Xbox was working just fine with IPv4 only. You have some choices to make and adjust your expectations if you go with consumer products. Prepare for lengthy beta testing and potential disappointments in the process.

Xbox is built to take advantage of IPV6

That was from 10 years ago, I was using IPV6 on my Xbox One S. it removes NAT and gives a slight performance boost.
Yes of course it works fine in IPV4 I understand that, but IPV6 works better. You may not see any benefits doesn't mean others don't. Also IPV6 has existed for an over a decade in ISP networks here in the UK at least, it's not any new thing. It really shouldn't be a case of if someone wants to use it and it doesn't work properly, only advice giving is to not use it.

WiFi 7 I would agree on, but it has been ratified now. But it is in very early stages.

I am working with TP Link engineers to see if they can help resolve the issue, otherwise I'll have to get something like a Mikrotik and access points. I agree I may be disappointed TP Link will fail to get their product working.

 

[MarkyR74]

I was simply trying to explain that there might not be a simple solution to your problem, as you're doing something that most likely isn't supported by consumer routers.

I have used IPV6 on ISP's for years now. I live in the UK and it has been available since 2016. So forgive me when I don't accept the don't use it advice. Consumer equipment I've had support it previously include Eero, Asus, Amplifi, internet provider supplied routers, even the OG Google WiFi worked perfectly fine with IPV6 until Google blocked it from working, their is one massive thread on their support page about that, if I recall they did enable it again after about 3 years then disabled it again.
So whilst in your experience you may not have had consumer routers support IPV6, I've been using it for years on consumer equipment. The TP Link system I have was in fact working on IPV6 no problem on my PPPOE connection, it's only got an issue with my DHCP fibre connection.

However of course it may well be a case of no consumer router supports IPV6 over DHCP, unless it's the ISP provides one. And I agree that may not be resolved for a long time, but then you are back to square one and the whole reason IPV6 was invented, to prevent IP's running out.

But my ISP provided router works on IPV6 and one of their support people advised me so does their Mikrotik router. I have never used Mikrotik though, I did use Ubiquiti before though.

 

[TheLostSwede]

I have used IPV6 on ISP's for years now. I live in the UK and it has been available since 2016. So forgive me when I don't accept the don't use it advice. Consumer equipment I've had support it previously include Eero, Asus, Amplifi, internet provider supplied routers, even the OG Google WiFi worked perfectly fine with IPV6 until Google blocked it from working, their is one massive thread on their support page about that, if I recall they did enable it again after about 3 years then disabled it again.
So whilst in your experience you may not have had consumer routers support IPV6, I've been using it for years on consumer equipment. The TP Link system I have was in fact working on IPV6 no problem on my PPPOE connection, it's only got an issue with my DHCP fibre connection.

However of course it may well be a case of no consumer router supports IPV6 over DHCP, unless it's the ISP provides one. And I agree that may not be resolved for a long time, but then you are back to square one and the whole reason IPV6 was invented, to prevent IP's running out.

But my ISP provided router works on IPV6 and one of their support people advised me so does their Mikrotik router. I have never used Mikrotik though, I did use Ubiquiti before though.

Mikrotik hardware is not for the faint of heart as they're not really intended for consumer use imho.

I do agree that IPv6 should simply be working by now, but clearly there are still issues.

What is wrong with the router your ISP provides, since you said it was working with it? You could simply turn off the WiFi on it and use the TP-Link Deco system for WiFi.

 

[MarkyR74]

Mikrotik hardware is not for the faint of heart as they're not really intended for consumer use imho.

I do agree that IPv6 should simply be working by now, but clearly there are still issues.

What is wrong with the router your ISP provides, since you said it was working with it? You could simply turn off the WiFi on it and use the TP-Link Deco system for WiFi.

Main issue with the ISP router is it only has gigabit ports, so it doesn’t get that overhead allowed, for instance with the TP Link it has all 2.5GB ports, and with its 6GHZ radio my WiFi 6E devices can hit just over a gigabit. May be silly but still.

I am going to give TP Link a chance to resolve it (I picked up another set and should have a bit of time before the return window closes). But if they can’t I was thinking of this MikroTik:

http://mikrotik.com/product/rb5009upr_s_in#fndtn-specifications or maybe the none POE model.

I was also looking at this Ubiquiti:

Cloud Gateway Ultra - Ubiquiti Store

Compact Cloud Gateway with 30+ UniFi device / 300+ client support, 1 Gbps IPS routing, and multi-WAN load balancing.

uk.store.ui.com

Then have a second switch or router at the top of my stairs, I have a cat 6 run from where the main router is in the hallway to the landing where the second router is. I would then have most likely Alta Labs AP’s:

Alta Labs: Enterprise WiFi 6 - Elevated

Lightning-fast internet access for seamless browsing, streaming, and downloading. WiFi 6 with WiFi 7 Benefits. 4096 QAM - 6.3 Gbps combined WiFi Capacity.

www.alta.inc

As with this setup there will be a 1 GB port limit somewhere in the link so no point in using WiFi 6E access points?
I’ve used Ubiquiti before, just not Mikrotik, I don’t mind researching how to configure it as I did that with Ubiquiti anyway, although Ubiquiti does have a bit of a more user friendly interface. Or just forget IPV6 as you suggested as I do prefer the all in one Mesh system solution.

 

[TheLostSwede]

That MikroTik router uses a really old (ca 2017) SoC from Marvell that's not power efficient at all and it "only" has two 2.5 Gbps ports.

https://www.marvell.com/content/dam/marvell/en/public-collateral/embedded-processors/marvell-embedded-processors-armada-7040-product-brief-2017-12.pdf

However, it will most likely do what you want it to do, but you might end up spending a lot of time getting everything configured right.

Manual:IPv6 Overview - MikroTik Wiki

wiki.mikrotik.com

Manual:Webfig - MikroTik Wiki

wiki.mikrotik.com

You might as well look at installing OpenWRT or DD-WRT on some supported hardware instead, as both are easier to configure imho.

One option might be this https://www.gl-inet.com/products/gl-mt6000/
It has two 2.5 Gbps and it is a router and it runs a somewhat modified version of OpenWRT as its operating system. It's also a lot more affordable than some of the options you've considered. https://store-uk.gl-inet.com/products/flint-gl-ax1800-dual-band-gigabit-wi-fi-6-router
It's obviously not WiFi though.

 

[Tech9]

Xbox is built to take advantage of IPV6

Because of this Xbox "advantage" your entire network has to run dual stack, dual firewall, your IPv4 security strategy has to be duplicated to IPv6 as much as possible, your IoT devices have straight access to Internet and all your network is visible from Internet as individual devices, sometimes identifiable. Early IPv6 adopters were identifiable down to physical street address and for years, in millions. They also perhaps enjoyed Xbox with IPv6 during that time. Things definitely improved over time, but don't trust blindly rushed to the market consumer products with somewhat working firmware. Asus for example had broken firewall rules for about a month in official firmware exposing all IPv6 capable devices straight to Internet. Very few users were aware, how many were affected is unknown, Asus didn't say a word about it. Trust, but verify... if you know how.

 

[MarkyR74]

That MikroTik router uses a really old (ca 2017) SoC from Marvell that's not power efficient at all and it "only" has two 2.5 Gbps ports.

https://www.marvell.com/content/dam/marvell/en/public-collateral/embedded-processors/marvell-embedded-processors-armada-7040-product-brief-2017-12.pdf

However, it will most likely do what you want it to do, but you might end up spending a lot of time getting everything configured right.

Manual:IPv6 Overview - MikroTik Wiki

wiki.mikrotik.com

Manual:Webfig - MikroTik Wiki

wiki.mikrotik.com

You might as well look at installing OpenWRT or DD-WRT on some supported hardware instead, as both are easier to configure imho.

One option might be this https://www.gl-inet.com/products/gl-mt6000/
It has two 2.5 Gbps and it is a router and it runs a somewhat modified version of OpenWRT as its operating system. It's also a lot more affordable than some of the options you've considered. https://store-uk.gl-inet.com/products/flint-gl-ax1800-dual-band-gigabit-wi-fi-6-router
It's obviously not WiFi though.

Thanks for that but I think I would rather go the Ubiquiti or Mikrotik route, may give that Ubiquiti router a go if I need to as it's reasonably priced, can always send it back, and at least it has a 2.5GB WAN port.
I note what you say about the processor in the Mikrotik, I think it's been out a while now though.

 

[Tech9]

and at least it has a 2.5GB WAN port

Up to Gigabit throughput with IDS/IPS enabled.