ASUS firmware will change the verification method

[sfx2000]

For anyone that can't do what you can though (99.9999% of people, even on this forum), that is a margin some are willing to pay to get the benefits that Asus hardware, firmware and long term support gets them.

Hardware, by itself, doesn't mean a thing. The software/firmware though? That is what makes the world tick.

I don't begrudge that - honestly... they're making good business, and they have happy customers..

If one has ever even looked inside the factory firmware - one might reconsider that statement sometimes - not all the issues are due to Broadcom's SDK

 

[RMerlin]

I've done the BOM breakdowns - the RT-AC500 Bill of Material is a little over $110 USD, and most of the NRE is actually carried by Broadcom as part of the HDK/SDK packages, so Asus just needs to wrap it in a nice plastic box and drop their GUI on it - think about that when spending $400+ - the margin there is staggering, but Asus (and other OEM's have done a great job of building things up there).

There's is a fairly large R&D team behind the software, it's not just someone slapping a Linux distro on an x86 and calling it a day. Add to that the cost of the tech support team, inventories to handle RMAs, etc...

The BOM is far from being a definitive account of how much a router REALLY costs.

And this is getting way, way off-topic.

 

[sfx2000]

And this is getting way, way off-topic.

I agree... the approach that Asus is taking actually came up recently on a couple of tech podcasts that I subscribe to, and the general consensus there was very positive, compared to what a couple of other vendors have announced.

 

[bobg8zwf]

What will happen if you purchase a router in one Country and then at some point transport it to another Country? Do they plan to use some form of ISP or WAN address lookup, to determine where the router is sitting, and then use this information to set the allowable wifi channels and power limits?
I'm only thinking outloud. Trying to get my head around the implications of an international product, which can be easily transported by the end user to anywhere in the world - which should then be restricted (or released) to the local regulations.

 

[Dick_W]

Trying to get my head around the implications of an international product, which can be easily transported by the end user to anywhere in the world - which should then be restricted (or released) to the local regulations.

I don't know what they will do; but I know when I drive in America, I drive on the right and when in Japan, UK, or Australia, on the left. And if you ship your US market, left-hand drive, car to any of those countries, you best do the same.

The only other choice for the manufacturers is to use radio hardware that is not international capable. And then moving your router from country to country and remaining compliant would be impossible.

All of this kerfuffle comes down to whether or not you want to play by the locally established rules of the road--in this case frequency allocations and transmit power limitations. The only reason this is happening is lots of users of these products were willfully failing to do so.

 

[sfx2000]

The only other choice for the manufacturers is to use radio hardware that is not international capable. And then moving your router from country to country and remaining compliant would be impossible.

All of this kerfuffle comes down to whether or not you want to play by the locally established rules of the road--in this case frequency allocations and transmit power limitations. The only reason this is happening is lots of users of these products were willfully failing to do so.

It would be really great if the international regulatory folks could harmonize on the 5GHz channels, much like most of world did with 2.4GHz (ch1-11 is usually available) - DFS enhancements would go a log way here...

 

[Dick_W]

It would be really great if the international regulatory folks could harmonize on the 5GHz channels, much like most of world did with 2.4GHz (ch1-11 is usually available) - DFS enhancements would go a log way here...

I don't know why they haven't, but suspect that pre-existing allocations make this hard. If you have spectrum, you are disinclined to give it up.

 

[sfx2000]

I don't know why they haven't, but suspect that pre-existing allocations make this hard. If you have spectrum, you are disinclined to give it up.

These come down to policy decisions at the end of the day - WiFi in many channels is a "secondary" user - better DFS implementations would help free those channels up for use...

 

[bobg8zwf]

I don't know what they will do; but I know when I drive in America, I drive on the right and when in Japan, UK, or Australia, on the left. And if you ship your US market, left-hand drive, car to any of those countries, you best do the same.

The only other choice for the manufacturers is to use radio hardware that is not international capable. And then moving your router from country to country and remaining compliant would be impossible.

All of this kerfuffle comes down to whether or not you want to play by the locally established rules of the road--in this case frequency allocations and transmit power limitations. The only reason this is happening is lots of users of these products were willfully failing to do so.

Yes, agree with you Dick_W.

My take on it then would be along the lines I mentioned above. At router coldstart, wifi limited to the lowest common denominator of anything permissible worldwide. After boot and successful connection to wan, release the restriction up to the permissible levels (of channel, power etc) for that location.
Of course, this would entail all the setting information being stored in the router, where it has to be totally un-editable. (or, of course, stored at some remote server). This is probably the biggest difficulty. Also, it needs implementing correctly, so that for every country the full channel and power limits of that country are permitted. (Unlike the current DE/EU arrangement covering the whole of Europe, which is not correct).

I fully agree that the device must follow the "rules of the road" where it is being driven.

 

[sfx2000]

My take on it then would be along the lines I mentioned above. At router coldstart, wifi limited to the lowest common denominator of anything permissible worldwide. After boot and successful connection to wan, release the restriction up to the permissible levels (of channel, power etc) for that location.
Of course, this would entail all the setting information being stored in the router, where it has to be totally un-editable.

Do a search on Cognitive Radio - this pretty much does what you're saying, and a lot of really smart people are working on it - whether it's for WhiteSpace or unlicensed spectrum.

 

[sfx2000]

FWIW

@thiggins or @RMerlin - can we prune some of the content into a new thread - lots of good info, but getting a bit off track from the original topic...

 

[MarkyPancake]

Plus, it makes no sense to put in place a limitation, then tell people: "you can flash this one with a restriction, or flash this one which don't". Would totally defeat the purpose.

If they wanted to, I'm sure they could come up with a solution to tie country specific firmware to country specific hardware to keep the FCC happy whilst also allowing the kit to operate to the standards of other territories, instead of just taking the sledgehammer approach.

 

[Orbitalfenestra]

Wow. That's crazy! All the answers to the things I noticed the last month. Asus moving his firmwares to other (I was looking everywhere lol) And updating to Merlin FW broken! I suppose that if it is not fix by now then this will last quite a long time... I have two RT-AC88U in media bridge mode. With one router the wake on lan version works like a charm. (You see deactivated devices under the list "client mac adress). In media bridge mode, I have a PC connected to it. as soon as it goes to sleep, then it disappears from the main router's list. So after 10-15 minutes, I can't WoL this PC unless I go direcly into the media bridge. The media bridge stop broadcasting my PC MAC adress or the main router just don't put the media bridge devices under "deactivated devices". I wanted to try Merlin build to see if it could work. Or else report this to someone like Merlin... Which topic should I use for this matter?

I guess it can't be helped... No Merlin build **cries**

 

[Deleted member 22229]

You can use Merlins latest Alpha builds they will load with the new no go back code. But anything older will not.

 

[sfx2000]

This is turning into a bit of a challenge - reviewing threads here and other places - folks are getting stuck when trying to back flash older firmware (not just third party firmware). Some of the platforms are Common Firmware Environment, and others are uBoot, and they're all kind of in the same place...

As an industry - there needs to be a rethink on how this is done - whether it's using L4 (or variants thereof) or a signed bootloader (must match, and older firmware won't match), CFE and uBoot do have those options...

I just hate to see folks struggle with this, when it's a fairly obvious problem for engineering to solve... and this is something either the vendors can team up and define a common spec, or the chipset makers themselves, but it needs to be solved, and solved soon.

This is not that much different that Linux/BSD on x86 once UEFI and TPM came into play - while the libertarian folks in that community totally freaked out - the pragmatic folks approached the problem, and found a fix - because if they didn't, there's wouldn't be Linux or BSD on WinTel platforms...

 

[Deleted member 22229]

I don't honestly see the point to this several people have already found a way around it anyway. Just seems stupid to me to go through all this and still have away to simply go around it. Even Vortex has said no problem he knows how to get around it. Possibly this is why other manufactures just stopped third party code.

As soon as the FCC finds out people are just going around it Asus will be in trouble again.

 

[sfx2000]

I don't honestly see the point to this several people have already found a way around it anyway. Just seems stupid to me to go through all this and still have away to simply go around it. Even Vortex has said no problem he knows how to get around it. Possibly this is why other manufactures just stopped third party code.

As soon as the FCC finds out people are just going around it Asus will be in trouble again.

We can stick our heads in the sand, and pretend the problem doesn't exist - but this doesn't make the problem go away.

I like your post - as it shows that some folks have found a way to work around potential blocks, and as you noted, this puts Asus back at risk - and this isn't good news for anyone.

We need a vibrant 3rd party community - absolutely essential, IMHO, as this drives forward innovation, and that third party community often finds and fixes bugs before the OEM's can...

If I didn't care - I wouldn't have posted - but this is something I do care very much about - the OEM's have a really great opportunity here to work together to define a common spec...

 

[RMerlin]

I don't honestly see the point to this several people have already found a way around it anyway. Just seems stupid to me to go through all this and still have away to simply go around it. Even Vortex has said no problem he knows how to get around it. Possibly this is why other manufactures just stopped third party code.

Nothing a bootlaoder update won't take care of. I wouldn't be surprised if newer manufactured batches will also implement the new header signature in their bootloaders.

 

[Deleted member 22229]

Yes i also believe third party is a must and should remain a option. But as far as Vortex and HGgomes i could care less if they got shut down for good. I think they are part of the reason this has happened to begin with. Breaking region codes and allowing illegal transmit power.

 

[sfx2000]

Yes i also believe third party is a must and should remain a option. But as far as Vortex and HGgomes i could care less if they got shut down for good.

Rising tide lifts all boats - let's not forget the great contributions from the DD-WRT and OpenWRT communities - this tends to spread quickly across the forks, and the OEM builds.

Some folks are going to do what they're going to do - that's a given. I would rather view the positive contributions of others than dwell on the sins of the few...