Coexistence of Wireless G and N networks seperately

[radesix]

I'm a pretty technical person and have been dealing with PCs and networks for 20 years. I'm not an expert with wireless networks but I'm not a novice either. But in this case I need some input and a thorough discussion before I go jacking with my whole wireless network because I know I could end up wasting a serious amount of time.

Here is a description of my residence and equipment location:

Upstairs - Home Office:

Cable Modem
Linksys WRT310N Router (using WEP... I know! I know! I'm wanting to move to WPA2 which is part of the purpose of this discussion)
Wired: Netgear ReadyNAS NV+
Linksys Wireless G Print Server for an HP LJ 1200
Desktop PC
MacBook Pro 17" Unibody (when sitting in office)

Wireless: HP Photosmart C6150 Wireless G

Downstairs: - Living & Kitchen Area
No real equipment here; however I have a MacBook Pro that I take from my office and my fiancee's MacBook that we use to access the network via wireless from the couch and her office.

Basement:
Linksys WAP54G AP in Repeater Mode
XBOX360 via Wireless Adapter

Here is my situation:

It isn't possible to get a wired connection from upstairs to the basement access point. Thus I know that bandwidth already sucks down there because using the AP in repeater modes halves my capacity to around 27Mbps. However, for gaming purposes and streaming photos and music from the Netgear ReadyNAS NV+ this has been sufficient. Obviously, it isn't sufficient for streaming video content which would be a great bonus but I don't see it happening without a wired connection.

I need my fiancee to be able to run backups to the ReadyNAS via wireless from the downstairs living area and her office (of which it is also not feasible to have a wired connection). I also do a lot of large file transfers to and from the NAS wirelessly and have grown tired of dealing with the 54Mbps G bottleneck.

That being said... because Microsoft is too lame to create a freakin' wireless N adapter for the XBOX 360 console and because I have two printers that are G i'm stuck with G clients.

I understand the common recommendation is to separate the G and N networks. Knowing that I need to get off WEP and onto WPA2 to achieve N speeds for the wireless laptop connections but I still need a G WIRELESS network to get a connection down to the XBOX in the basement and the printers.

Obviously the NAS and the N laptops would be running on the WRT310N but I am thinking of configuring an older WRT54G as a downstream AP. I have a couple basic questions before moving forward. I've seen the tutorials on configuring an old router by disabling the DHCP and wireless radio and setting it to a static IP address outside of the upstream DHCP.

1) Do I have to disable the wireless radio? I'd still need this to get a signal to the WAP54G in the basement for XBOX connectivity.
2) Would I have to have two separate SSIDs, one for the N and one for the G?
3) If I do need two seperate SSIDs how can I ensure that all devices (i.e. the XBOX in the basement can still hit the NAS on the N network, i.e. the laptops connected to the N network can still print to the printers on the G network)?
4) Obviously the WRT54G would be wired into the upstairs home office. Can I expect problems due to the close proximity of two wireless networks?

I have prepared both .png image and a Visio diagram of my current setup. I realize this is a lengthy post the but right advice can save me tons of hassle and I'd greatly appreciate any input.

You can view the .png and Visio Diagram from my iDisk at:

http://public.me.com/radesix

If you really don't have anything better to do... feel free to update my Visio diagram!

Thanks in advance for your expertise!

radesix

 

[tipstir]

I'm a pretty technical person and have been dealing with PCs and networks for 20 years. I'm not an expert with wireless networks but I'm not a novice either. But in this case I need some input and a thorough discussion before I go jacking with my whole wireless network because I know I could end up wasting a serious amount of time....

I can't access your diagram. I have mine in PDF. Just use Visio and print to PDF using a freeware PDF creator.

As for your problem. How many sq feet do you have? You have both PC and MAC environment going on there. The Kitchen area I have issues with wireless in there I have gone with AP to wired connections as a fallback. Interference is higher in that area.

You can run ethernet cable from the basement to AP on the main floor. Using WDS (100% wireless client bridge) to Wired-to AP is okay but then
bandwidth suffers. This method works. I use to run mine like this. But I find it's better to run Ethernet cable directly to it.

 

[radesix]

I can't access your diagram. I have mine in PDF. Just use Visio and print to PDF using a freeware PDF creator.

As for your problem. How many sq feet do you have? You have both PC and MAC environment going on there. The Kitchen area I have issues with wireless in there I have gone with AP to wired connections as a fallback. Interference is higher in that area.

You can run ethernet cable from the basement to AP on the main floor. Using WDS (100% wireless client bridge) to Wired-to AP is okay but then
bandwidth suffers. This method works. I use to run mine like this. But I find it's better to run Ethernet cable directly to it.

I added a PDF version to the same iDisk repository.

As I mentioned in the original post it isn't feasible to run cable from the basement. Either I'd be cutting holes in the wall and feeding cable up between floors... A real mess and not something I am interested in OR i'd have a cable laying on the ground running up the stairs and through a doorway and into the living room. Also not aesthetically pleasing. I would have the same problem coming from the router upstairs downward. I have no desire to have cables laying around the house or to drill holes in my walls.

I have no problems with wireless coverage anywhere in my house or outdoors. My problem is getting N speeds to coexist with G devices.

 

[thiggins]

I think the simple solution here is to buy an N wireless bridge like the Linksys WET610N or WGA600N to replace the WAP54G. This will improve the speed to the basement devices and allow you to move everything to WPA2/AES (assuming all the laptops can support it). You can connect it to a switch to support multiple Ethernet devices, including an AP if you want it.

Now to your questions:

1) Do I have to disable the wireless radio? I'd still need this to get a signal to the WAP54G in the basement for XBOX connectivity.

If you are converting a wireless router to an AP, you need to leave the radio enabled. Where in the article did you see instructions to disable the radio?

2) Would I have to have two separate SSIDs, one for the N and one for the G?

Yes. You would need that to be able to connect a client to the desired network.

3) If I do need two seperate SSIDs how can I ensure that all devices (i.e. the XBOX in the basement can still hit the NAS on the N network, i.e. the laptops connected to the N network can still print to the printers on the G network)?

The SSID is just used to connect the client and AP. It has nothing to do with the actual TCP/IP network connection. As long as all the devices are in the same subnet (in your case 192.168.1.X), you'll be fine.

4) Obviously the WRT54G would be wired into the upstairs home office. Can I expect problems due to the close proximity of two wireless networks?

I suggest a minimum 6-10 ft separation between APs/routers. Today's radios have high receive sensitivity and can be overloaded if they are too close. You should set the APs to different channels, using only 1, 6 and 11. You should also use 20 MHz bandwidth mode, not 40. There is little gain to using 40MHz mode and it actually will reduce your range a bit.

All the above being said, moving/ backing up large files via even draft 11n wireless will be slow. A typical draft 11n connection with medium signal strength may produce, say 50 Mbps throughput, which is a little more than 6 MB/s. This is slower than even first generation NASes were capable of. I know you can't do a wired connection to the other floors. But for large backups, you may want to trot up to upstairs and jack in.

Finally, I see wired and wireless connetions for RadeMobile and Natasha's Laptop. I suggest you disable the wireless connection when you are connected via Ethernet. Otherwise you have two active network connections and may actually be limiting speed by having traffic use the wireless connection when it could be using Ethernet.

 

[radesix]

I think the simple solution here is to buy an N wireless bridge like the Linksys WET610N or WGA600N to replace the WAP54G. This will improve the speed to the basement devices and allow you to move everything to WPA2/AES (assuming all the laptops can support it). You can connect it to a switch to support multiple Ethernet devices, including an AP if you want it.

Now to your questions:
If you are converting a wireless router to an AP, you need to leave the radio enabled. Where in the article did you see instructions to disable the radio?

Yes. You would need that to be able to connect a client to the desired network.

The SSID is just used to connect the client and AP. It has nothing to do with the actual TCP/IP network connection. As long as all the devices are in the same subnet (in your case 192.168.1.X), you'll be fine.

I suggest a minimum 6-10 ft separation between APs/routers. Today's radios have high receive sensitivity and can be overloaded if they are too close. You should set the APs to different channels, using only 1, 6 and 11. You should also use 20 MHz bandwidth mode, not 40. There is little gain to using 40MHz mode and it actually will reduce your range a bit.

All the above being said, moving/ backing up large files via even draft 11n wireless will be slow. A typical draft 11n connection with medium signal strength may produce, say 50 Mbps throughput, which is a little more than 6 MB/s. This is slower than even first generation NASes were capable of. I know you can't do a wired connection to the other floors. But for large backups, you may want to trot up to upstairs and jack in.

Finally, I see wired and wireless connetions for RadeMobile and Natasha's Laptop. I suggest you disable the wireless connection when you are connected via Ethernet. Otherwise you have two active network connections and may actually be limiting speed by having traffic use the wireless connection when it could be using Ethernet.

The problem in the basement is the darn XBOX360 doesn't support WPA2 or N so the N bridge won't really help me, right?

Your response regarding the SSIDs, spacing, bandwidth mode, and channels are very helpful. Finally, we use MarcoPolo on the Macs to auto shutoff the wireless adapters when using the wired Ethernet connections.

I realize N won't provide blazing fast throughput for large file transfers but even If I can speed browsing the internet for her while she is on the couch is a plus for me. I personally always "wire in" for large backups. But I'm a travelling consultant and I don't expect she will be that religious about coming into my office to plug in at a specified time for backups.

I have some scheduled tasks running to synchronize her Users folder to the NAS as long as her laptop is on. Any performance improvement here is a plus too.

All that being said... my plan is to acquire the router I shouldn't have sold when I upgraded to the WRT310N. I'll wire the WRT54G into the N router and place them on different channels about 10 feet apart with separate SSID's. I'll run all the G traffic including the XBOX and basement AP through the WRT54G using WPA and I'll leave the main WRT310N only for N traffic using WPA2.

This will also give me a few more Ethernet ports in my office which are highly desired also!

 

[thiggins]

The problem in the basement is the darn XBOX360 doesn't support WPA2 or N so the N bridge won't really help me, right?

It will if you connect the Xbox360 via Ethernet from the bridge. Can't you do that?

 

[radesix]

There is another cabling issue there too. Unfortunately the XBOX must connect wirelessly.

 

[tipstir]

There is another cabling issue there too. Unfortunately the XBOX must connect wirelessly.

You can have both wireless G and wireless N working but I would use two wireless devices for N and G. Someone using the same wireless router or wireless access point don't seem to be so stable. Also you can always run Etherent cable outside the house. This is how I do it. Option though. I don't know how your budget is for spending but you can get more powerful higher coverage AP for G or N. Going to cost more though for 10,000 sq.