HELP! Farmer trying to set-up long-range property WiFi

[FarmerFran]

Hello All,

I'd like to set up WiFi across my 35 acres of property in order to let me stream media, including live-streaming WiFi-based security cameras. My challenges are that I don't have power across the property - a problem that can be fixed with a lot of hassle (e.g., setting up solar-based power generators), but I'd like to get some help before going down that road.

My constraints:

• I am using AT&T Internet Air (~$65.00 / month) since there's no other choices available in my area
• I need to reach the following destinations measured away from where the main router is.
  • NNE (North-Northeast) - 315 ft
  • ESE (East-Southeast) - 305 ft
  • SSE - 450 ft, 910 ft
  • W - 550 ft (2 connections)
  • S - 480 ft, 760 ft, 760 ft
  • SW - 600 ft, 675 ft
• There is no power at any of the locations listed above. I am planning on using WiFi-based solar security cameras from Eufy.

Does anyone have an idea how to support this project?

 

[thiggins]

I cleaned up the thread and got rid of the spammer.

This is not an easy project, especially given that you want camera streaming, which can eat up bandwidth. It's also outdoors, which requires equipment that can withstand temperature changes and is water resistant.

You could start with a site survey. You'll need to set up an outdoor base node. Then walk to your desired locations with a laptop or phone and run speedtests to get an idea of the bandwidth you will get at each point. You'll also get a feel for whether you can reach each location in a single hop (point-to-point link). If you can't, then the project gets more complicated because you may need to set up repeaters.

I don't have experience with any outdoor products, so can't recommend anything. But if you search for outdoor wifi extender or mesh on Amazon, you'll come up with some candidates. Then you can repost and perhaps get better feedback.

TP-Link has a number of outdoor products, as does EnGenius. So does Ubiquiti, but they can be difficult to set up. You're not looking for outdoor bridges. They will just connect to each other and provide an Ethernet port.

Powering each node is a whole other project and I can't help you there. Sorry

 

[FarmerFran]

I cleaned up the thread and got rid of the spammer.

This is not an easy project, especially given that you want camera streaming, which can eat up bandwidth. It's also outdoors, which requires equipment that can withstand temperature changes and is water resistant.

You could start with a site survey. You'll need to set up an outdoor base node. Then walk to your desired locations with a laptop or phone and run speedtests to get an idea of the bandwidth you will get at each point. You'll also get a feel for whether you can reach each location in a single hop (point-to-point link). If you can't, then the project gets more complicated because you may need to set up repeaters.

I don't have experience with any outdoor products, so can't recommend anything. But if you search for outdoor wifi extender or mesh on Amazon, you'll come up with some candidates. Then you can repost and perhaps get better feedback.

TP-Link has a number of outdoor products, as does EnGenius. So does Ubiquiti, but they can be difficult to set up. You're not looking for outdoor bridges. They will just connect to each other and provide an Ethernet port.

Powering each node is a whole other project and I can't help you there. Sorry

I'm figuring some sort of mesh network will be needed. My concern about repeaters is halving the throughout at each hop.

I figure I start off with my "Base Router", run hardline to an outdoor Router, and mesh from there. I just have no realistic idea regarding the Range I can attain using 2.4G WiFi 6 (or 7). I'm not sure if WiFi 7 improved 2.4G or not (I believe it's focused on 6G / TriBand), but I would appreciate if someone could help get me started.

I haven't done I sight survey with a live WiFi connection (outside of a phone hotspot) but before I do, I should at least get the first outdoor router / bridge / mesh AP / repeater / extender (whatever is needed) setup and then measure from there. I'm open to suggestions!

 

[Tech9]

Does anyone have an idea how to support this project?

Watch this video for a fun DIY project on a budget:

There are commercial outdoor wireless devices with 8-10-14dBi directional antennas (mostly used for bridges, some like Ubiquiti NanoStation loco m2 have AP mode for clients), but 1000ft away is a challenge. You have to have line of sight, the beam will be about 60-40 degree, usable distance perhaps about 200-400ft. The antenna used in the video is 17dBi with 25 degree beam. I don't know how reliable solar cameras are (never used one), but you can eventually manage to shoot 2x at a time in direction S/SW, ESE/SSE, etc. Your only chance is 2.4GHz communication and don't count on 1000ft distance. Life video stream is another challenge, but one AP per 2-3 cameras may do it. The guy above is smart choosing an AP with removable antennas. This allows him to replace the antenna(s) and eventually shoot 2x 25 degree sectors around. Note at 1000ft the signal level is still very low at -78dBm. The AP used is dual-band AC1200 class, but N300 will do the same thing. Only 2.4GHz radio is needed anyway.

The antenna used:

I'm figuring some sort of mesh network will be needed.

No, this won't work on 35 acres and with no power available. Unless you want to run wires across the perimeter.

 

[FarmerFran]

Watch this video for a fun DIY project on a budget:

There are commercial outdoor wireless devices with 8-10-14dBi directional antennas (mostly used for bridges, some like Ubiquiti NanoStation loco m2 have AP mode for clients), but 1000ft away is a challenge. You have to have line of sight, the beam will be about 60-40 degree, usable distance perhaps about 200-400ft. The antenna used in the video is 17dBi with 25 degree beam. I don't know how reliable solar cameras are (never used one), but you can eventually manage to shoot 2x at a time in direction S/SW, ESE/SSE, etc. Your only chance is 2.4GHz communication and don't count on 1000ft distance. Life video stream is another challenge, but one AP per 2-3 cameras may do it. The guy above is smart choosing an AP with removable antennas. This allows him to replace the antenna(s) and eventually shoot 2x 25 degree sectors around. Note at 1000ft the signal level is still very low at -78dBm. The AP used is dual-band AC1200 class, but N300 will do the same thing. Only 2.4GHz radio is needed anyway.

View attachment 59689

The antenna used:

View attachment 59692



No, this won't work on 35 acres and with no power available. Unless you want to run wires across the perimeter.

Regarding powering another router or AP, I can do that using a solar portable power generator. Solar in => Generator has built in MPPT and charges a battery => Battery runs low power inverter => powers WiFI equipment. All in all, $600 of equipment, but doable.

Does that help?

 

[Tech9]

Does that help?

You have to start with site survey first as suggested by @thiggins. You have to have line of sight between devices for a chance to make it work. Solar power, generators, invertors, batteries... this is just more maintenance and failure points. Every repeater will cut the throughput in half further reducing the chances of streaming live feed from cameras. This thing needs planning otherwise you'll spend thousands in experiments with no guaranteed result.

 

[FarmerFran]

You have to start with site survey first as suggested by @thiggins. You have to have line of sight between devices for a chance to make it work. Solar power, generators, invertors, batteries... this is just more maintenance and failure points. Every repeater will cut the throughput in half further reducing the chances of streaming live feed from cameras. This thing needs planning otherwise you'll spend thousands in experiments with no guaranteed result.

So I'm trying to create a parts list to at least start testing. To start, I took out a laser rangefinder and confirmed exact distances:

• NE: 90 yards (Line of Sight / LOS) + 126 yards (Non-Line of Sight / NLOS)
• ESE: 110 yards (NLOS)
• SSE: 140 yards (NLOS), 220 yards (NLOS)
• S: 255 yards (LOS)
• SW: 215 yards (NLOS)
• W: 185 yards (NLOS)

I didn't measure some of the points - but this should be a good start.

The key concern is that there's a lot of points which are NLOS. For what it's worth, the solar security cameras I'm using say they work up to 200 yards of WiFi. Maybe a fat chance, but that's what they say.

Anyways, before I go buy this expensive AT&T Internet Air thing ($65/month), I'd like to start cheap. Here's my thoughts:

1. Get a strong outdoor Access Point with removable antennas (like in the video) and aim one in each direction - N, S, E, W.
   • Any suggestions? Should this work?
2. Get a USB-C to Ethernet adapter and USB-Tether my Smartphone to the Access Point and provide it wireless signal.
3. Go to all the individual places where I need service and measure (using a different WiFi device) the signal strength in - X dBm.
4. Report Back

Any thoughts?

 

[Tech9]

Should this work?

Unlikely for all NLOS areas.

the solar security cameras

I personally would never buy this product. I don't know where are you located, but clouds, fog, slow... 50C exposed on direct sunlight or -20C in the winter... this thing may not survive a year. Solar cells wear out, batteries inside have limited recharge cycles, they also suffer from high or low temperatures... doesn't sound like reliable solution to me. More like something temporary.

 

[FarmerFran]

Unlikely for all NLOS areas.



I personally would never buy this product. I don't know where are you located, but clouds, fog, slow... 50C exposed on direct sunlight or -20C in the winter... this thing may not survive a year. Solar cells wear out, batteries inside have limited recharge cycles, they also suffer from high or low temperatures... doesn't sound like reliable solution to me. More like something temporary.

Wouldn't it be possible for me to make a mesh which connects to the main AP via LOS and then use an omnidirectional antenna to reach the NLOS areas?

Regarding the solar technology, I am very comfortable with it. I am far more worried about the WiFi. I have solar powered equipment everywhere and it runs like a top. My non-solar equipment breaks down a lot more often (I actually have not had any of my solar stuff fail).

 

[Tech9]

omnidirectional antenna

Omnidirectional antenna means 2-3dBi, it won't do >600 feet, no way.

You have >1.5 million square feet area, this is >26 football stadiums. You need professional installation of multiple (100+) outdoor APs to cover this area with Wi-Fi and investment in 6 digit numbers. What you are thinking to do yourself with few devices is just not possible. Wi-Fi was never designed to reach that far, there are power limits, you'll lose half of the throughput on every hop (after 2 hops your cameras won't be able to stream video anymore), even PoE won't go further than 300ft without booster, etc. This idea is not realistic.

 

[FarmerFran]

Omnidirectional antenna means 2-3dBi, it won't do >600 feet, no way.

You have >1.5 million square feet area, this is >26 football stadiums. You need professional installation of multiple (100+) outdoor APs to cover this area with Wi-Fi and investment in 6 digit numbers. What you are thinking to do yourself with few devices is just not possible. Wi-Fi was never designed to reach that far, there are power limits, you'll lose half of the throughput on every hop (after 2 hops your cameras won't be able to stream video anymore), even PoE won't go further than 300ft without booster, etc. This idea is not realistic.

I guess I wasn't as clear as I hoped . I was not suggesting to use the omnidirectional antenna to cover the whole property or span 200+ yards.

I was suggesting that I could beacon from my "Base Station" AP to another - where the receiving device would be relatively close to where service is needed. On this receiving device, I was suggesting an omnidirectional antenna. We're talking about multiple devices within 100 yards.

In theory, I'd have this "Base Station" leverage (4) boosted external antennas (+17 / +18 dBi) and beam them towards (4) of such APs - one N, one S, one E, one W. They'd each be beaming towards one of these receiving APs which would have the omnidirectional antennas to enable local distribution.

If this would work, then I figure in the worst case, I can take (4) CAT 6 feeds out of the AT&T router and feed (4) such Base Stations, one pointing in each direction. This way I'm sending four antennas downstream in each direction instead of one in each direction.

Thoughts?

 

[thiggins]

Here's an article describing experience with a pair of TP-Link 2.4 GHz outdoor bridges. It echoes points already made, but also provides some practical info on what you might expect for range and bandwidth.
Again, I'd pick a base outdoor AP or a pair of outdoor bridges and start experimenting.

Point-to-point Wi-Fi bridging between buildings—the cheap and easy way

It cost us ~$100 to wirelessly connect two buildings across a small wooded area.

arstechnica.com

Read through the comments, too. Some good tips there.
Note that Ethernet has 100m limit. For 100 Mbps, you can probably push that a bit, but bit errors will eat up bandwidth. And if you're using PoE, voltage will drop.

 

[Tech9]

We're talking about multiple devices within 100 yards.

Multiple devices have to share the bridge bandwidth. How many cameras* and what other devices? The main issue remains the power source on the other side, it has to be very reliable. This TP-Link CPE210 bridge has AP mode, I used the exact same device as an example in another thread (Ubiquiti NanoStation loco M2 is similar, also has AP mode). It can do few hundred feet direct to clients and well over a mile to another CPE210**. Then you need local AP to cover the devices there, but I'm not sure about 300ft around. May or may not work, depends on how sensitive radio the client has.

* - cameras even with HD sensor are mostly useless at big distance, you won't see much 100ft away day time, nothing night time.
** - If you ask why the big difference: AP-to-Client will be 9dBi <-> 2dBi antennas, Point-to-Point will be 9dBi <-> 9dBi antennas.

 

[Dr Tone]

If you can get cell service in the far reach areas of your property, I’d just put some solar powered cellular game cameras in places you want to monitor.

 

[Tech9]

I was actually thinking about this option, but it needs multiple cellular plans and cheaper options often have limited data included.

 

[Crimliar]

In the UK, it used to be possible to get solar-powered 433MHz security cameras that could be powered off a solar cell and a rechargeable battery (connecting to a hub). These were motion-triggered - not permanently recording, and the resolution was appalling. These allegedly had just about have the range that you need, but they were always in the domain of sucurity/alarm fitters not networking companies. As for domestic 2.4GHz solar powered security cameras, I have a couple; you'll be lucky if the batteries last 3 years, and the solar panels are delaminating!
*It's got to be more than a decade since I last saw the 433Mhz devices up close though and they were not impressive - good luck searching!

 

[Dr Tone]

I was actually thinking about this option, but it needs multiple cellular plans and cheaper options often have limited data included.

It would depend on how many pictures or videos the OP wanted I suppose. I run 4-5 cameras in the woods and depending on activity the included 250 pictures per month cover the activity for a few of them. If I have more activity I add a $10/month plan to those cameras during the required season.

 

[Tech9]

It would depend on how many pictures or videos the OP wanted I suppose.

I believe @FarmerFran wants to have live camera feed. The reason I never mentioned game motion detection products.

you'll be lucky if the batteries last 3 years, and the solar panels are delaminating

Eufy solar wireless cameras look like toys. Amazon reviews for one of the models mention peeling and dead in 6 months.

 

[Crimliar]

Mine are Reolink Indistinguishable from Eufy), and the solar panel is 6 - 7 years old (averages temps 0c to 25c, and humidity 60%):

It's most annoying feature is that the internal antennas appear to be horizontally polarized (WHY????)! Dfinitely NOT a suitable solution for our OP!

 

[Tech9]

For security cameras I would never go with solar, battery inside and wireless. Three points of failure before I even get to the camera image.