Help with planning home network

[OJay]

Hi all,


I’m currently building a new house and as part of that am planning a home network. I’m the house I have 8 Ethernet ports on the 2nd floor (2 per room and 2 on the landing for an access point + backup), 4 on the 1st floor ( 2 for the media centre / tv area and 2 in the middle of the open plan space for an access point) And 2 ports on the ground floor in the “man cave”.

All ports terminate into the garage.

Currently I have a Gigabit connection (A) but am planning to get a second 2Gb connection (B). If/when I do this it’s likely that I will keep B for the man cave and have A shared around the rest of the house.

In terms of routers is likely going for one of Asus ROG Rapture GT-AXE16000 or Asus RT-AX89X unless there are any other suggestions.

I believe these can both handle dual WAN connections and have at least one 2.5Gb port.

I know I’ll also need a patch panel but the last piece of the puzzle is a switch. From my understanding what I would need in a switch is 2x POE ports and at least 10 other ports (one port each next to the access points wouldn’t be used unless the other one does somehow). What I’m struggling with is what to look for in a switch and what’s a good brand etc. I’m also planning to rack the switch along with the patch panel if that’s important.

From what I’ve seen a lot of switches have for example 10 gigabit ports and 2 multi gig ports and I get the impression to get something like a switch with 12-24 multi gig ports may be extremely expensive. I’ve got a fair amount to spend but not an unlimited amount (the unlimited amount already got spent on the house build)

Since I’m planning on an unmanaged switch perhaps a good enough compromise is to connect the router from isp B into the 2.5 WAN port of the GT-AXE16000, plug the two 10 Gb ports directly into the patch panel to go to the two ports in man cave, plug the router from isp A into one of the 1Gb ports and of course the switch into one of the 1Gb ports as well.

If I’m right this should give the man cave access to the full 2Gb, the rest access to 1Gb and have everybody on the same internal network so if I wanted to for example share something from my pc to a tv upstairs I can.

Apologies for the huge wall of text but considering this, do you have any switch recommendations or things I should consider that keep in mind?

Also in case it gets asked the reason I don’t just get the 2Gb connection on its own is because it’s not available yet and I have to sign a 1 year contract for connection A. And why do I want to then add connection B (which complicates things), the only reason I can give is just because, never had a 2Gb connection and I’d like one!

If I’ve missed any information that would be useful to know please let me know.

Thanks

Edit: what may be of note is that the only device that can actually use 2Gb is my PC. Also perhaps this would have been better off in the B other LAN section?

 

[L&LD]

This won't work how you expect. The unmanaged switch is a single network. And there is no way to segment the 1Gbps service from the 2Gbps service to the split you want.

Why isn't a more secure location used for the cable runs than the garage?

To do this properly, you need two routers (one for each WAN connection). Commercial equipment here will be astronomically priced for these types of speeds.

You will either have one network (home+mancave) or two (home, and mancave). Be sure to put the wiring to do either, if that is what your goal is.

With a new home, I would run every cable to its physical center point (in 3D space), including multiple cables runs from the ISP point. I would also run at least two cables to each drop (i.e. 4, or more, per room, in at least a 2x combination, per outlet). This will ensure the shortest cable runs and the highest possible performance (particularly for future Ethernet standards).

To the mancave, I would be running a minimum of 12 runs. Along with convincing that 2Gbps ISP to install their equipment inside (or as close as possible) to the mancave itself (thinking about this, I would want the other ISP there too).

Don't build/install how you use/understand things, today. The few dollars those extra cable runs cost today will be worth their weight in gold in the future when needs, and technology/expectations change.

If you have a diagram of this layout, more/better suggestions may be possible.

 

[OJay]

It's possible that I missed out important details but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I will have 3 routers. The GT-AXE16000 acting as a router and being the singular home network and 2 ISP routers both in modem mode each going to the GT-AXE16000. So the GT-AXE16000 is the "singular network" (I don't really have the vocabulary to properly describe what i'm saying) and it decides which traffic goes through which connection. As I had done previous when I had dual WAN, I will pin certain IP addresses (those of devices in the man cave) to the 2Gb connection and have everything else use the 1Gb connection. Or actually I think i used an ip address range.

I actually asked for the Ethernet to all go to the Back of the garage because i knew no better lol, perhaps I shouldn't have, I was concenred with the potential noise. It's literally the other side of the wall of the man cave though. As far as number of cables go. I think I will have to live with 2 ports (this being 2 individual cables) per location. There are pull cords so if i really needed to down the road I could add more but for my needs I can't see that being the case.

There have been many changes since these mixed bag of plans but they are close enough to represent where the cables and ports are. In order from ground, middle top. Red X's are 2 ethernet ports. the green X is where all the wires end up, so where i was planning to have the patch panel etc. Quite frankly i'm too lazy to park my car in the garage and so it will never be exposed to the elements. Also the cabinet will be wall mounted.

Anything else that would be helpful let me know.

Thanks for the response!

 

[Tech Junky]

First thing is to skip the Asus idea. Just get a wired router for the cabling room and tie that into your switch.

For the switch either get a managed switch to segregate the ports into different VLANs when you add a 2nd WAN or you can do dumb switches and share bandwidth for the time being and then split them later. The wired router can do VL's and just plug one switch into a port for VL2 and the other into VL3 and you keep the cost down. Then later if the router doesn't have dual WAN capabilities you just get another one for the 2nd WAN connection and move the 2nd switch to the new router.

For the AP's you can get a cheap POE switch or just use POE injectors for the ports that the APs tie into.

Router - $50-$200 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BNPTW2L2/?tag=snbforums-20 $70 single WAN/LAN \\ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BKFVXNRB/?tag=snbforums-20 $150 WAN = 3 LAN or reconfigure it for dual WAN later and split the 2 ports into 2 VL's to different switches
POE Injectors - $50-$100 / https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BS5C3HY/?tag=snbforums-20 $43
2.5GE switch - $150 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0995T34KL/?tag=snbforums-20 / unmanaged $140 \\ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XWK4HNT/?tag=snbforums-20 unmanaged $100 \\ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084MH9P8Q/?tag=snbforums-20 MANAGED $180
APs - $130/ea https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HQQ4SPQ/?tag=snbforums-20
If these aren't cheap where you're located then look into the Omada APs

 

[OJay]

First thing is to skip the Asus idea. Just get a wired router for the cabling room and tie that into your switch.

For the switch either get a managed switch to segregate the ports into different VLANs when you add a 2nd WAN or you can do dumb switches and share bandwidth for the time being and then split them later. The wired router can do VL's and just plug one switch into a port for VL2 and the other into VL3 and you keep the cost down. Then later if the router doesn't have dual WAN capabilities you just get another one for the 2nd WAN connection and move the 2nd switch to the new router.

For the AP's you can get a cheap POE switch or just use POE injectors for the ports that the APs tie into.

Router - $50-$200 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BNPTW2L2/?tag=snbforums-20 $70 single WAN/LAN \\ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BKFVXNRB/?tag=snbforums-20 $150 WAN = 3 LAN or reconfigure it for dual WAN later and split the 2 ports into 2 VL's to different switches
POE Injectors - $50-$100 / https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BS5C3HY/?tag=snbforums-20 $43
2.5GE switch - $150 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0995T34KL/?tag=snbforums-20 / unmanaged $140 \\ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XWK4HNT/?tag=snbforums-20 unmanaged $100 \\ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084MH9P8Q/?tag=snbforums-20 MANAGED $180
APs - $130/ea https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HQQ4SPQ/?tag=snbforums-20
If these aren't cheap where you're located then look into the Omada APs

I think i'm grasping about half of what you are suggesting.

A question. Is there a functional difference between say 1 router with dual WAN + an unmanaged / dumb switch vs 2 routers and a managed switch with multiple VLANs or do they get you to the same place. Is one option "objectively" better.

I had a look at some of those links and so if i were to "spec out" some options would i be looking at something like: (as i typed this I am aware it doesn't make sense but I need to know what i need to fix so i left it as is)

2x https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BNPTW2L2/?tag=snbforums-20 one for each connection. Plug 1 port into the ISPs router (in bridge mode/ modem mode/whatever they decide to call it mode) and the other port into a router.
2x poe injectors
1x of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B097RC8ZF2/?tag=smallncom-21 for the 2Gb network ( or even the 5 port version tbh)
1x 8/16 port switch with 1Gb ports (this would go to everywhere that isn't the bottom floor)
2 or 3 AP's

I wasn't really sure I understood the purpose of this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BKFVXNRB/?tag=snbforums-20. It has a single Gigabit port. Though I could actually build an overspecced small form factor PC to act as the router if I can unbend the pins on my old ryzen 3700x, also find it.

My end game is to have one big network but have the devices or ip ranges I choose use the faster connection with everything else in the cheap seats. (and I suppose to have the ability to fail over if one connection dies. Though this can be a manual process if having it automated adds too much cost or trouble).


Not to go back to the Asus (it's just all i know). But wouldn't this be solvable with the GT-AXE16000 and 2x https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B097RC8ZF2/?tag=smallncom-21. Using the 2.5Gb wan port for the fast connection. the 2x10Gb ports one connected to each switch and one of the 1Gb ports connected to the "slow" connection then using Dual WAN on the GT-AXE16000. Saying that I did have some small issues with dual wan on my current router buuut this ones is a bit underpowered. Is there a reason to avoid the ASUS idea (I presume it's because i would be paying for features i'm not using e.g. wifi, also if I had a mini PC with the same price budget it would be faster and more capable?)

If you wouldn't mind fixing my plan up there so that it makes sense (I think it currently wouldn't really work) either with the use of a managed switch or multiple unmanaged switches. And to make it simpler we can just treat it as if I have both connections here today and ready to use (the second one should be available before the end of the year anyway.

(thanks again for any help)

Edit: Also @L&LD in terms of port numbers and future proofing. to be honest the only ports in the house that will be in use are the man cave ports and the wireless access point ports. The rest are really just there more as a just in case something needs to be wired in any of the rooms (quite unlikely but for peace of mind)

 

[L&LD]

As I said, you've planned/designed for what you now know (or assume). Things change fast, and refinishing/painting drywall in the future will only be vastly more expensive than a few extra cable runs today. Your home, your call.

Thank you for the diagrams (they are not high enough resolution for my eyes though to see the details). How many SqFt is the main floor area?

If you're going to be using the ISP-supplied routers, simply use two dumb switches and do the segregation that way for ultimate simplicity. Less is always more when designing a stable, secure, and reliable network. As for the fact that these will now be two different networks, simply use a special Guest Network SSID on the home network that matches the mancave SSID to allow you to roam freely.

Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[drinkingbird]

Since I’m planning on an unmanaged switch perhaps a good enough compromise is to connect the router from isp B into the 2.5 WAN port of the GT-AXE16000, plug the two 10 Gb ports directly into the patch panel to go to the two ports in man cave, plug the router from isp A into one of the 1Gb ports and of course the switch into one of the 1Gb ports as well.

Do you really need anywhere near that kind of bandwidth? More than 1 gig for a residential house? You may be severely overthinking this.

I would certainly get at least a smart switch, they aren't much more money and give you the flexibility to segment your network and share a single cable for multiple purposes if it ever becomes necessary. Many also add on features like LAG etc.

As far as the rest I'm not even going to try and touch it until you give it some thought and determine if you truly need two ISPs and that kind of bandwidth. If you're concerned about outages, then get whatever speed you need from ISP1, the lowest speed from ISP2 (you can live with reduced speed during an outage) and use a router with dual WAN setup. But is the internet really that unreliable in your area (and are the two ISPs really not impacted at the same time)?

 

[L&LD]

Do you really need anywhere near that kind of bandwidth? More than 1 gig for a residential house? You may be severely overthinking this.

The reasons given are enough.

Also in case it gets asked the reason I don’t just get the 2Gb connection on its own is because it’s not available yet and I have to sign a 1 year contract for connection A. And why do I want to then add connection B (which complicates things), the only reason I can give is just because, never had a 2Gb connection and I’d like one!

If I’ve missed any information that would be useful to know please let me know.

Thanks

Edit: what may be of note is that the only device that can actually use 2Gb is my PC.

 

[OJay]

As I said, you've planned/designed for what you now know (or assume). Things change fast, and refinishing/painting drywall in the future will only be vastly more expensive than a few extra cable runs today. Your home, your call.

Thank you for the diagrams (they are not high enough resolution for my eyes though to see the details). How many SqFt is the main floor area?

If you're going to be using the ISP-supplied routers, simply use two dumb switches and do the segregation that way for ultimate simplicity. Less is always more when designing a stable, secure, and reliable network. As for the fact that these will now be two different networks, simply use a special Guest Network SSID on the home network that matches the mancave SSID to allow you to roam freely.

Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Each floor is 60sq metres.

I want it to be one network so that I can connect easily from any device on the network to any other if needed. I suppose I could do what I have currently, which is just bin off connection A once connection B becomes available. In this case would I just grab a router (i'm not going to mention the ASUS router again, I don't work for them). Use the 2.5 Gb WAN port for the ISP router and the 10Gb ports one each to 2x https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B097RC8ZF2/?tag=smallncom-21 and call it a day? This should leave me with 14 ports on the switch for all of the ethernet ports in the rooms in the house and 2 to connect to the router (one on each dumb switch).

Do you really need anywhere near that kind of bandwidth? More than 1 gig for a residential house? You may be severely overthinking this.

I would certainly get at least a smart switch, they aren't much more money and give you the flexibility to segment your network and share a single cable for multiple purposes if it ever becomes necessary. Many also add on features like LAG etc.

As far as the rest I'm not even going to try and touch it until you give it some thought and determine if you truly need two ISPs and that kind of bandwidth. If you're concerned about outages, then get whatever speed you need from ISP1, the lowest speed from ISP2 (you can live with reduced speed during an outage) and use a router with dual WAN setup. But is the internet really that unreliable in your area (and are the two ISPs really not impacted at the same time)?

Simply put no I don't. As i said before the reason i'm getting connection 1 is because It is what is available now. The reason I am getting connection 2 is because i've never had 2Gb internet and...i want it. The ability to failover is just a justification i'm giving myself and potential useful use case (It has been useful in the past when I was using dual WAN, Currently I have two connections still but only use 1). I just want to see 2Gb when I download something on my PC. (Also connection 1 is DOCSIS and i kind of hate it whereas connection 2 will be fully FTTP). If connection 2 was available now I would probably skip the first one and only get the 2Gb connection but I can't be in a house for possibly 3 months without an internet connection.

The internet stability is secondary to just having some fast s**t if i'm going to be honest.

 

[drinkingbird]

Each floor is 60sq metres.

I want it to be one network so that I can connect easily from any device on the network to any other if needed. I suppose I could do what I have currently, which is just bin off connection A once connection B becomes available. In this case would I just grab a router (i'm not going to mention the ASUS router again, I don't work for them). Use the 2.5 Gb WAN port for the ISP router and the 10Gb ports one each to 2x https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B097RC8ZF2/?tag=smallncom-21 and call it a day? This should leave me with 14 ports on the switch for all of the ethernet ports in the rooms in the house and 2 to connect to the router (one on each dumb switch).



Simply put no I don't. As i said before the reason i'm getting connection 1 is because It is what is available now. The reason I am getting connection 2 is because i've never had 2Gb internet and...i want it. The ability to failover is just a justification i'm giving myself and potential useful use case (It has been useful in the past when I was using dual WAN, Currently I have two connections still but only use 1). I just want to see 2Gb when I download something on my PC. (Also connection 1 is DOCSIS and i kind of hate it whereas connection 2 will be fully FTTP). If connection 2 was available now I would probably skip the first one and only get the 2Gb connection but I can't be in a house for possibly 3 months without an internet connection.

The internet stability is secondary to just having some fast s**t if i'm going to be honest.

If you have the money and want it, go for it. But you're going to have a hard time finding things that can take advantage of it, maybe some popular torrents. Most sites and services throttle connections. The main exception being some speed test sites.

FTTP is definitely worthwhile, but I'd think they'd offer something lower than 2G too?

If you truly want multigig and to be somewhat future proof I'd start with your switch and get one that can at least do 2.5G and supports VLANs. For your router you're probably looking at an x86 based opnsense or pfsense device. Then you can add APs where needed and can even split them across the two networks using VLANs etc.

You're at the point where a home router like Asus probably isn't a good choice, for the money it will barely keep up (if at all) and won't be as flexible.

There is some lower end pro or semi-pro stuff out there that can do it too but cost is going to start getting pretty high compared to an open source router.

If sticking with Asus you're probably going to need two to take advantage of 3 gig worth of internet, one for each ISP. Would need to check and see if anyone has done throughput testing on the 10G models to see where they cap out. Dual WAN can be a bit buggy too, but I think it is more with failover than load sharing.

But as mentioned already trying to use a home Asus router probably isn't really appropriate for what you're trying to build out. A wired only router, multigig switch, and dedicated APs is the proper way to go.

 

[drinkingbird]

The reasons given are enough.

Debatable

 

[Tech Junky]

I think i'm grasping about half of what you are suggesting.

Basically I'm thinking of a couple of options.

ISP (Docsis) - Router A - Switch - POE / AP
ISP (FTTP) - Router B - Switch - POE / AP

Or

Router w/ flexible ports like the VPN router or your DIY option would work best w/ a quad 2.5GE NIC (cheap) and segment from there into VL's if needed but, this will prevent things from talking to each other unless you permit them to and just use rate limiting to control bandwidth by IP/VL

The single port routers were if you wanted to do some redundancy in HW to each ISP

The multiport VPN router w/ 4 ports is the same as your DIY idea but with limited port density allowing for 2 WAN / 2 LAN

Nice thing about most APs is you can do VL's on them as well. In most cases up to 8 of them or more depending on the AP. The AP I linked has up to 8 SSIDs per band for a total of 16 if you don't combine 2.4/5ghz.

If you want to up your game and pay slightly more then QNAP makes a quad 5GE NIC that's $200 vs the 2.5GE at $150. Gong to 10GE you can find dual port options for ~$200. It depends on how deep you want to go with bandwidth and/or how much to spend doing it. If you had a couple of PCs near each other then you could use a DAC cable and do 40/100GE.

Managed switch will take some load off the router by putting the VL management on the switch. If you went DIY you could allocated DHCP by MAC and then tweak things by IP/MAC/VL and implement QOS from there using iptables. From the standpoint of saving $$ a dumb switch makes more sense for port density and you could even venture into Cisco gear and just 11get a 24 port fairly cheap.

As @drinkingbird points out this is where DIY would benefit more as you can put the client on the DIY box and grab the bandwidth for those downloads directly. Then your bottleneck could be the disk speed. I have mine setup this way as the router / NAS and don't need to DL to my laptop and then copy it over it just dumps right to the disk locally at full speed.

 

[OJay]

If you have the money and want it, go for it. But you're going to have a hard time finding things that can take advantage of it, maybe some popular torrents. Most sites and services throttle connections. The main exception being some speed test sites.

FTTP is definitely worthwhile, but I'd think they'd offer something lower than 2G too?

If you truly want multigig and to be somewhat future proof I'd start with your switch and get one that can at least do 2.5G and supports VLANs. For your router you're probably looking at an x86 based opnsense or pfsense device. Then you can add APs where needed and can even split them across the two networks using VLANs etc.

You're at the point where a home router like Asus probably isn't a good choice, for the money it will barely keep up (if at all) and won't be as flexible.

There is some lower end pro or semi-pro stuff out there that can do it too but cost is going to start getting pretty high compared to an open source router.

If sticking with Asus you're probably going to need two to take advantage of 3 gig worth of internet, one for each ISP. Would need to check and see if anyone has done throughput testing on the 10G models to see where they cap out. Dual WAN can be a bit buggy too, but I think it is more with failover than load sharing.

But as mentioned already trying to use a home Asus router probably isn't really appropriate for what you're trying to build out. A wired only router, multigig switch, and dedicated APs is the proper way to go.

I think I have settled on the idea of just not using the DOCSIS connection once I can get the FTTP one (one good thing about it is that it's very cheap). I know we are in the switch forum but any recommendation for an appropriate/good x86 based device to install opnsense or pfsense on, it seems I can actually get this one from Amazon germany (Router) (though the reviews aren't great...for what Amazon reviews are worth). I have no attachment to ASUS, it's just what I know.

2 of these seem appropriate for this setup in terms of multigig switches https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B097RC8ZF2/?tag=smallncom-21.

So would I just be looking at:

1 x Router.
2 x https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B097RC8ZF2/?tag=smallncom-21.
1 x patch panel
a couple POE injectors
a few (perhaps 3) APs.

I'd love if Zyxel made a 24 port version of that switch but I don't believe they do. Also any other router rec's would be appreciated though i'm not sure i'm qualified to compare them and choose......

I'll use the DOCSIS connection until I can get the FTTP one and then swap it out at that point.

 

[Justinh]

Router - $50-$200 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BNPTW2L2/?tag=snbforums-20 $70 single WAN/LAN

I don't think I want a special-use networking device where I have to install the OS. I can't imagine the can of worms that opens up. Yikes.

 

[drinkingbird]

I don't think I want a special-use networking device where I have to install the OS. I can't imagine the can of worms that opens up. Yikes.

Any opnsense or pfsense is going to have a Linux OS and software running on it. Installing it yourself saves some money and results in the same thing.

The only way to avoid this is to spend a lot more on mikrotik, firewalla, etc.

 

[L&LD]

Debatable

"I'd like one" is not debatable.

 

[OJay]

Feels like a "how long is a piece of string" kind of question and i'm fairly sure the answer is going to be it depends. But would you describe that mini router as adequately powered? i'm fine with spending more.

The only things i currently run on my router are adblock and various utilities like conmon. I'm unlikely to go crazy with customization and become a network guru overnight but i'd like a router that can run a few scripts / addons:

That's what i currently use.

 

[L&LD]

I think I have settled on the idea of just not using the DOCSIS connection once I can get the FTTP one (one good thing about it is that it's very cheap). I know we are in the switch forum but any recommendation for an appropriate/good x86 based device to install opnsense or pfsense on, it seems I can actually get this one from Amazon germany (Router) (though the reviews aren't great...for what Amazon reviews are worth). I have no attachment to ASUS, it's just what I know.

2 of these seem appropriate for this setup in terms of multigig switches https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B097RC8ZF2/?tag=smallncom-21.

So would I just be looking at:

1 x Router.
2 x https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B097RC8ZF2/?tag=smallncom-21.
1 x patch panel
a couple POE injectors
a few (perhaps 3) APs.

I'd love if Zyxel made a 24 port version of that switch but I don't believe they do. Also any other router rec's would be appreciated though i'm not sure i'm qualified to compare them and choose......

I'll use the DOCSIS connection until I can get the FTTP one and then swap it out at that point.

There is no way you need four routers in a ~645 SqFt home. Unless the walls are concrete or similar, drop the need for APs.

A single connection will be superior to what you suggested previously.

You may still leave the slower connection for failover WAN mode though, for the peace of mind.

The FTTP connection is highly recommended over the cable modem, particularly where latency is concerned.

Taking the size of the home into consideration and the assumption that the walls are not concrete (until they are proven otherwise), the recommendations above are certainly overkill for a home network with wireless WiFi being the preferred connection choice and a single network throughout.

 

[drinkingbird]

"I'd like one" is not debatable.

My question was whether they need one. Want is a totally different thing, and as long as they realize they may be spending on something that isn't going to get fully utilized frequently, then hey, go for it.

I have a car that goes a lot faster than I need and most likely I'll never hit 200mph, but it's fun and I wanted it, so by all means, have at it. Everyone has wants and needs, just making sure it was understood 3 gigs worth of internet is likely not in the latter category.

 

[L&LD]

The category was already stated, as was the lack of concern for the cost. You may have missed that if you just skimmed the first few posts.