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Yes but not having the controller is better due to it being easier to manage and clone and manage a massive amount of APs.

I heard Aruba is more expensive than Meraki though.
 
Probably moot, as I doubt many engineers that design/deploy/support enterprise-scale WiFi (controller based) frequent this forum.

The enterprise WiFi that I've worked on are so complex and labor-intensive that the cost of APs is lost in the noise.
 
Call Facebook and NSA and tell them to start using $200 consumer grade products at all their data centers. Because they are throwing money away, while you and I are not paying enough for so so many awesome features.

Their focus is not the most bang for the bucks, their focus is stability and rack mount. Unfortunately you don't find many consumer grade routers for rack mounting. The routers at Facebook most likely are rack mounted computers with fiber NICs, a lot of RAM and booting from a storage-cluster.

BTW, I'm really impressed that you know about what hardware the NSA are using. Guess you're the next Snowden?
 
Their focus is not the most bang for the bucks, their focus is stability and rack mount. Unfortunately you don't find many consumer grade routers for rack mounting. The routers at Facebook most likely are rack mounted computers with fiber NICs, a lot of RAM and booting from a storage-cluster.

BTW, I'm really impressed that you know about what hardware the NSA are using. Guess you're the next Snowden?


Anything can be made rackmountable. But thanks for missing the point.
 
Yes but not having the controller is better due to it being easier to manage and clone and manage a massive amount of APs.

I heard Aruba is more expensive than Meraki though.

Not quite. Some 'controller' based AP systems are actually easier to configure and manage precisely because there is a central point to do all the dirty work.

It isn't always necessarily a separate piece of hardware dedicated to this task though.

E.g.
Ubiquiti Unifi (granted it's not exactly enterprise grade h/w) can be configured from a computer running their software but it (the computer) is not required for regular operations unless you need it for vouchering.

Motorola has AP units that can double up as master controllers (and the ability to assign failover controllers).

Both only need the AP's to be in the same network for the initial configuration (or routed through). This beats configuring individual units one-by-one for larger deployments. I've had to configure 8 Engenius (Senao) APs individually for a residential project and it wasn't fun at all.
 
The controllerless statement was specifically referring to the Cisco Meraki units. They have the controller hosted in the cloud.

This makes it easier and also can traverse over multiple physical locations under one "controller" rather then the controller being a physical piece of hardware. That eliminates the expense of the physical controller.

Physical hardware is only needed if it's an MX security appliance for L3 roaming. You can easily handle L3 roaming on a VM concentrator.
 
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@remixedcat: That explains a lot. BTW, I haven't had the chance to muck around with the Aruba/ Meraki units. What happens when you lose internet connectivity? Is the configuration stored in NVRAM on all the AP's so wireless (albeit local) access is still fully functional?
 
Yes local access is fully functional, you can't change settings but settings are retained. it's self healing.
 
Probably moot, as I doubt many engineers that design/deploy/support enterprise-scale WiFi (controller based) frequent this forum.

I do (Cisco WLC-based). So much bad information in this thread it hurts.
 
I do (Cisco WLC-based). So much bad information in this thread it hurts.

Oh lord, i pray and bow to you, i pray that you bestow your wisdom on to us mortals, and grace us with your wisdom.


Dude, you have two choices; provide correct information or GTFO. This is not rocket science, even homeless people understand this.
 
Nah--too much work. Eventually you realize you're this guy and find better things to do. It takes very little effort to be wrong about something, and the low-effort response is to say "Nope!" and move on (or just move on, which doesn't bruise any egos, but hurts the community in the long run).

However, since this thread has a few gems, if anyone wants to go to the effort to defend "enterprise gear is 90s tech," "enterprise gear, it's gotta be rackmount" or "Meraki wireless deployments are controllerless because the controller is in the cloud," I'll respond in kind.
 
Oh lord, i pray and bow to you, i pray that you bestow your wisdom on to us mortals, and grace us with your wisdom.


Dude, you have two choices; provide correct information or GTFO. This is not rocket science, even homeless people understand this.
Language that undermines credibility.
 
Nah--too much work. Eventually you realize you're this guy and find better things to do. It takes very little effort to be wrong about something, and the low-effort response is to say "Nope!" and move on (or just move on, which doesn't bruise any egos, but hurts the community in the long run).

However, since this thread has a few gems, if anyone wants to go to the effort to defend "enterprise gear is 90s tech," "enterprise gear, it's gotta be rackmount" or "Meraki wireless deployments are controllerless because the controller is in the cloud," I'll respond in kind.


When I tried to engage a 'professional' to design a proper network for a customer of mine, the prices started in the stratosphere and quickly escalated to outer space to add the features required by my customer. Not to mention their per minute cost of configuring all of this esoteric stuff.

(Being the middleman in this situation, I want to get the lowest prices and the best matched products even more than my customers - it directly affects how much I'll make on the project and how much effort I'll need to put in the future to keep those customers happy).

This was in their office (the 'pro') and without them lifting a finger to research specific equipment, prices or offering any advice to better the proposed network or any possible issues that may have been obvious to the 'pro'.

Sure; I understand that being the 'pro' they don't need to do the above with each new customer - they are thoroughly familiar with their own products and capabilities and have these answers at the tip of their tongues.

What did bother me though is the fact that while I don't doubt the reliability and stability of the products they offered, they charged enough for them that it didn't matter any more (an order of magnitude difference) vs. any consumer router I could provide, configure and support for my customer directly.

And while I said 'enterprise gear is '90's tech' - I mostly meant as a positive as to how stable it is. But that stability is not worth 10x the price and effectively per minute billing to setup, deploy and maintain (if needed) the proprietary products they are pushing.

(In addition, of course, to their lack of features unless you pay through the nose for their latest products, if the features you need are even available for their products 'now').

In summary;
In 30 years or so, I hope the networking products from the previous 30+ years have matured and stabilized enough to warrant their almost automatic recommendation as a reliable 'appliance'. But that doesn't mean they're the better choice in all situations or in even most small office setups.

At double the price I could consider them for anyone, at triple or quadruple the price I could consider them for some of my customers (or even myself). But the prices as they are now, and the fact that the equipment itself is proprietary (meaning; you are tied into the same line of future products - from the same manufacturer), means that they are essentially acting as a monopoly and I guess that is what I disagree with the most.

This is in stark contrast to buying an Asus, a Netgear or a Linksys product (or all three, if needed) and having the same effective performance from (my) customer's point of view.

Maybe my customers are the wrong target audience for the 'good stuff'. All I know is that the bottom line doesn't lie; the benefits received from the extra $$$$ will not be seen in their (or my) lifetime.


Thank you for having a serious discussion about this (unlike some here), I hope that you can provide some information that will change my mind about the above.
 
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Cloud based controllers with cloning and login from anywhere with no special consoling cables, software, or anything and the best QoS controls are not 90s tech. 802.11n is not 90's tech, guest portalled access with social media logins and advanced metrics is not 90's tech.... I can go on...
 
Cloud based controllers with cloning and login from anywhere with no special consoling cables, software, or anything and the best QoS controls are not 90s tech. 802.11n is not 90's tech, guest portalled access with social media logins and advanced metrics is not 90's tech.... I can go on...


And... you missed my point.

And while I said 'enterprise gear is '90's tech' - I mostly meant as a positive as to how stable it is.


To address the cloud based controller: how does that benefit a small office? It doesn't from my perspective. As a matter of fact; I see that as a negative to a secure network.

And social media login? Seriously? That is a nightmare waiting to happen.

QoS; okay, given. But that is worth the huge price difference?


What real performance figures can I see (not marketing) that will convince me (first) then my customers that this level of device is needed in anything smaller than a 50 person office or shop setup?
 
Right product, right place.

SOHO and SMB generally have neither the need nor the budget for "enterprise" hardware.

As you scale up into either larger areas and/or larger number of users isnwhen you start getting into the potential need for more enterprise grade products.

Just being honest when I say I have seen plenty of ugly failures on enterprise networking products (and server and storage products as well).

What I see as the most important is the skill of the people planning / installing / managing the network.

Okay so now we are going to start managing our network gear from "the cloud". Public or Private? Whose cloud? AWS and Rack Space have had some pretty high profile outages. There's also the risk that the provider is compromised. Private cloud? Maybe better bit its back to the skill of the architecture/engineers/administrators.



Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
 
https://meraki.cisco.com/trust#data-centers

and cloud managing allows you to control it from anywhere with no software. all you need is a web browser. No SSH clients, no fiddling with network policies to enable SSH access. You can mange from a hotel, cafe, etc...

Lots of people trust Meraki. I've seen lots of places use it. Applebee's, Starbucks, Hospitals, Libraries, etc...

User data is not passed through the cloud, just management commands. It would help if you would read up on the tech before you bash it.

Also the Meraki units are PCI compliant as well so they are safe for credit card info. Again, the VLANs and the authentication methods are as secure as other enterprise networking gear.

The only difference between this and the controller is they host it and you don't. But the Meraki cloud is private and not hosted on Rackspace, AWS, etc.

Social logins are optional, and configured by the individual client. Those are for tracking demographics, offering promotions, etc. The APs that are configured are typically configured to also allow a bypass for that in case the particular customer does not have a social media account.

Again, you are completely jumping to conclusions about tech you don't understand. Please read up before you bash tech like this.

There's way too much of this scaremongering around and all it's doing is hurting the hosting industry and making people afraid to do anything or innovate.
 
Rwmixedcat:

You have no idea what my background is. Nobody is "scaremongering"...

I'll say this again ... For SOHO/SMB that this site is aimed at the solutions you are discussing are generally overkill. These organizations usually have neither the budget, need nor expertise for "enterprise" level solutions. Know your audience.



Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
 
When I tried to engage a 'professional' to design a proper network for a customer of mine, the prices started in the stratosphere and quickly escalated to outer space to add the features required by my customer. Not to mention their per minute cost of configuring all of this esoteric stuff.

(Being the middleman in this situation, I want to get the lowest prices and the best matched products even more than my customers - it directly affects how much I'll make on the project and how much effort I'll need to put in the future to keep those customers happy).

This was in their office (the 'pro') and without them lifting a finger to research specific equipment, prices or offering any advice to better the proposed network or any possible issues that may have been obvious to the 'pro'.

I am not a consultant, but I deal with consultants like Billy Bob over at Local Computer Tech, LLC on a regular basis. More often than not, Billy Bob, he's pushing Cisco gear because Local Computer Tech, LLC is a Cisco shop. Or a Sonicwall shop. Or a Fortinet shop--you get the idea. It is very convenient for Billy Bob's customers to be cookie cutter installations; different gear = increased support burden = lower profitability. He's not going to mention alternatives if he can get away with it.

Sure; I understand that being the 'pro' they don't need to do the above with each new customer - they are thoroughly familiar with their own products and capabilities and have these answers at the tip of their tongues.

You'd think that because Billy Bob set up 30 Sonicwalls, that he's a Sonicwall guru. Nope. Billy Bob has set up 30 very basic installations, because customers that hire Billy Bob tend not to have complex IT requirements. Billy Bob has done a wonderful job of avoiding having to learn anything complex up to this point, and he likes it that way. Companies like Local Computer Tech, LLC tend to have a guru on call to do the heavy lifting, but he's probably not the one doing housecalls.

What did bother me though is the fact that while I don't doubt the reliability and stability of the products they offered, they charged enough for them that it didn't matter any more (an order of magnitude difference) vs. any consumer router I could provide, configure and support for my customer directly.

One of my customers has an IT firm that charges them $70/mo to manage their firewall. My company often does it for free because we insist on reliable hardware that Billy Bob doesn't know how to troubleshoot. There's the cost of the hardware, then there's the cost to keep Local Computer Tech, LLC in business. It's more a matter of business model than support burden. A hefty markup is not uncommon, and that's not limited to enterprise gear.

And while I said 'enterprise gear is '90's tech' - I mostly meant as a positive as to how stable it is. But that stability is not worth 10x the price and effectively per minute billing to setup, deploy and maintain (if needed) the proprietary products they are pushing.

My company recommends Cisco ASAs. They're stable, but the real reason we push them is that they actually do what we need them to. If you have basic requirements and don't mind rebooting your router once a month, go with whatever's on sale on Best Buy. Enterprise-grade would just be overkill. My customers' techs often try to set things up with their SOHO routers, and they just don't have the feature set. SOHO devices also lack basic diagnostic functionality, so I get to troubleshoot for them.

Once you get proficient with the ASA, management is nearly effortless. While a local tech is clicking on screens trying to set up port forwarding on a new Netgear router, I've generated a config via script and pasted it into the ASA's running config. GUI is often easier to manage if it's the first/only time you'll deal with a particular vendor, but CLI scales very well.

(In addition, of course, to their lack of features unless you pay through the nose for their latest products, if the features you need are even available for their products 'now').

A Cisco ASA purchased in 2006 will run the newest OS, but you'll need a RAM upgrade. When you buy Cisco, you're not buying a gadget, you're buying a platform. The price reflects this. Planned obsolescence is more of a consumer-grade problem.

In summary;
In 30 years or so, I hope the networking products from the previous 30+ years have matured and stabilized enough to warrant their almost automatic recommendation as a reliable 'appliance'. But that doesn't mean they're the better choice in all situations or in even most small office setups.

Agreed--network products aren't a sliding scale with budget routers on one end and enterprise gear on the other. Enterprise gear is often the best solution available for specific requirements, and if a business doesn't have those requirements, it makes sense to go with a cheaper alternative.

At double the price I could consider them for anyone, at triple or quadruple the price I could consider them for some of my customers (or even myself). But the prices as they are now, and the fact that the equipment itself is proprietary (meaning; you are tied into the same line of future products - from the same manufacturer), means that they are essentially acting as a monopoly and I guess that is what I disagree with the most.

Emphasis mine. In many cases, a Sonicwall can be replaced by a Fortigate, or vice versa. Sure, you could be using the one feature Sonicwall has that no other vendor does, but odds are that you aren't, and that feature isn't a must-have anyway.

This is in stark contrast to buying an Asus, a Netgear or a Linksys product (or all three, if needed) and having the same effective performance from (my) customer's point of view.

For my business, the concerns are 1) is it reliable, and 2) does it do the job? For every piece of SOHO equipment my customer has tried, the answer is no.

Maybe my customers are the wrong target audience for the 'good stuff'. All I know is that the bottom line doesn't lie; the benefits received from the extra $$$$ will not be seen in their (or my) lifetime.

Probably the case.
 
Rwmixedcat:

You have no idea what my background is. Nobody is "scaremongering"...

I'll say this again ... For SOHO/SMB that this site is aimed at the solutions you are discussing are generally overkill. These organizations usually have neither the budget, need nor expertise for "enterprise" level solutions. Know your audience.



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A LOT of people are starting to outgrow consumer grade routers even at home. They demand more and more control as we get more devices and they also demand peace of mind. I am one of those.

I need guest isolation and tight security that consumer grade APs can't provide. So that's why I got the Meraki MR12 that I have now for the guests. They are kept isolated and they have to have more authentication requirements, bandwidth shaped so thier steam downloads don't murder my connection, etc.

Oh and this router:
http://remixedcat.blogspot.com/2014/02/cisco-meraki-z1-review.html

Has enterprise grade controls for the cost of a "high end" consumer grade router.

More and more people are looking outside the Linksys/Netgear/Belkin/ISP router box these days and that number is increasing.

If you spend more then 250 on a consumer grade router you are throwing money away.

Also having to buy a new router every few months and dealing with sim solabim from India that doesn't speak a lick of proper English when that one breaks and waging war with them and playing phone tag for days to get a simple RMA issued costs more in the long run. Small biz needs better support and to be taken care of well. Or that biz fails.


Oh and the "background" comment... people are scaremongering. They are so against "the cloud" that they diss anything that even has the word in it when they don't understand.
 
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