How do you avoid running out of IP addresses?

[Dreamslacker]

If you have basic requirements and don't mind rebooting your router once a month, go with whatever's on sale on Best Buy. Enterprise-grade would just be overkill. My customers' techs often try to set things up with their SOHO routers, and they just don't have the feature set. SOHO devices also lack basic diagnostic functionality, so I get to troubleshoot for them.

This rather sums up the problem half the time for me when dealing with SMB customers. I reckon the issue with SOHO or SMB these days is that they have some very specific needs that are not fulfilled by consumer (and in some cases, Biz class) equipment but any enterprise grade unit would be a complete overkill.

E.g. I have a customer requesting for a router for a 100M symm. line with a routed /28 block. They need roadwarrior VPN for only 3 - 5 concurrent logins at any given time but there are more than 10 users in total. VPN throughput is unimportant but they must be able to remote back on any combination of Windows, OSX, iPhones, & Droids. No wifi required because they've separate access points.
Their existing CBG RV120 obviously doesn't fulfil the requirements.
The closest business class router to actually fulfil their needs is an ISA570 but the cost is just insane for what you get. Not to mention that the PPTP implementation on the RV and ISA series seem to dislike IOS & Droids for some reason.
I ended up getting them to use an ISR881 for a fraction of the price instead. As a side perk, it takes me less time to configure the unit. Just login, setup the priviledged user, C&P my preconfigured list and copy the config to start-up. As opposed to clicking around on a somewhat sluggish WebUI that only really works well with IE (RV series especially).

Another customer has a WRT-310N as their main gateway. They refused to move to a separate access point solution because of costs but the WRT-310N is really getting on in age and since their upgrade to a 100M symm. line, it's not holding up too well. So now they have an ISP provided ISR 1941 sitting there just routing the public IPs to the WRT-310N when I could have reconfigured it for free to handle the NAT.
We eventually worked out a plan where 2 managers/ directors will take turns every morning when they come in and power cycle the WRT-310N.

 

[L&LD]

jdabbs and remixedcat,

Thank you both for your thoughtful answers. And for continuing this discussion in an adult manner.

I think, (please correct me if I'm wrong) that most of my points stand though?

I also did not see a price, product or service that could be considered reasonable for a small (50 seat or less) office or shop space. By reasonable, let's say $1K maximum, even though my customers balk at anything approaching $500 (a one time fee... for the next several years).

I am not so much against cloud based management as I am against 'only' a cloud based management solution. It doesn't matter what is said or who says it; it is only available at the whim (and finances) of the company providing it.

That is not what I would offer my customers, much less my dog.

I understand that a 'Billy Bob' type is not what/who you want to deal with. But I haven't found a better alternative in this part of the woods.

Again; I'm not looking too hard - those hardware, licensing and installation/maintenance fees (and ongoing, at that) keep scaring my customers before even wanting to meet with the 'Billy Bob's' I might otherwise suggest.

I agree that we all want more control (even some of the customers that don't know the proper terms are asking for very specific control too, over their networks), the question then is simple.

But the answer to that simple question is made very hard to be found. In either face to face meetings with the people selling such hardware/services or online in the websites or elsewhere with help to configure, setup and deploy the systems properly (such as here with the consumer equipment).

My biggest concern is allowing a partnership with any company that has all the control and leaves my customers with little recourse but to keep going down that single path they happened to choose some time in the past. And to be stuck in that path because of cost reasons.

We may be agreeing to disagree here, I don't know? But the exchange of information was very appreciated and I thank you both again.

 

[remixedcat]

Thing is I think too many businesses put IT infrastructure on the back burner these days and they wonder why employees complain and customers complain. When cashiers or waitresses go "the computer/network's down and I can't help you" that can even cost you more then the nicer router could have. When you have downtime that costs you more.

I seen this happen at a store and they couldn't take any new orders that day. It prolly cost them upwards of 10 grand.

They only look at the immediate bottom line and not about the long term TCO or cost of maintaining stuff over and over. It costs a lot to send techs to the site every day.

 

[KGB7]

Thing is I think too many businesses put IT infrastructure on the back burner these days and they wonder why employees complain and customers complain. When cashiers or waitresses go "the computer/network's down and I can't help you" that can even cost you more then the nicer router could have. When you have downtime that costs you more.

I seen this happen at a store and they couldn't take any new orders that day. It prolly cost them upwards of 10 grand.

They only look at the immediate bottom line and not about the long term TCO or cost of maintaining stuff over and over. It costs a lot to send techs to the site every day.

Or some moron did the initial installation with out double or triple testing his screw ups. Ive seen IBM POS (point of sale) registers go down, because some fudge muncher mislabeled half the ports on the patch panel during initial installation phase.
Now imagine running around in a large retail store in the middle of regular store hours, trying to figure out which port belongs where while half the POS are down. At the same time you are on the phone with the guys that are trying to figure out remotely what the issue is, because they been trying to balance the network for the past week with no success.

Hardware is not always to blame, most of the time its the morons that install it are at fault.

Even mom and pops gas stations that use POS rarely if ever go down, unless they just fail and have to be replaced.

 

[remixedcat]

POSes are POSes

 

[jdabbs]

Another customer has a WRT-310N as their main gateway. They refused to move to a separate access point solution because of costs but the WRT-310N is really getting on in age and since their upgrade to a 100M symm. line, it's not holding up too well. So now they have an ISP provided ISR 1941 sitting there just routing the public IPs to the WRT-310N when I could have reconfigured it for free to handle the NAT.
We eventually worked out a plan where 2 managers/ directors will take turns every morning when they come in and power cycle the WRT-310N.

This is pretty much why Meraki won't gobble up market share. If Mom and Pop shops won't buy appropriate hardware even when their current setup is breaking down regularly, they sure aren't going to write Meraki (Cisco) a check every year.

jdabbs and remixedcat,

Thank you both for your thoughtful answers. And for continuing this discussion in an adult manner.

I think, (please correct me if I'm wrong) that most of my points stand though?

If your customer requirements can be fulfilled by SOHO-grade gear and you haven't encountered a customer that this doesn't hold true for, it's likely the type/size of customer you're serving. I wouldn't conclude that enterprise gear doesn't fill a niche because you haven't encountered it yet.

I also did not see a price, product or service that could be considered reasonable for a small (50 seat or less) office or shop space. By reasonable, let's say $1K maximum, even though my customers balk at anything approaching $500 (a one time fee... for the next several years).

$1k doesn't price you out of enterprise territory, even at Cisco prices.

I am not so much against cloud based management as I am against 'only' a cloud based management solution. It doesn't matter what is said or who says it; it is only available at the whim (and finances) of the company providing it.

That is not what I would offer my customers, much less my dog.

I understand that a 'Billy Bob' type is not what/who you want to deal with. But I haven't found a better alternative in this part of the woods.

Again; I'm not looking too hard - those hardware, licensing and installation/maintenance fees (and ongoing, at that) keep scaring my customers before even wanting to meet with the 'Billy Bob's' I might otherwise suggest.

There's customer wants/needs, and then there's what they're willing to pay for. Never the twain shall meet. Cisco support isn't free, but you are free not to buy it. My company crunched the numbers and decided it was cheaper to buy a new AP if one fails than keep all of them under contract. Doesn't cost me a dime beyond power to operate. Some vendors even offer a free lifetime warranty (this is not uncommon on switches).

I agree that we all want more control (even some of the customers that don't know the proper terms are asking for very specific control too, over their networks), the question then is simple.

But the answer to that simple question is made very hard to be found. In either face to face meetings with the people selling such hardware/services or online in the websites or elsewhere with help to configure, setup and deploy the systems properly (such as here with the consumer equipment).

Cisco TAC provides configuration assistance--comes with the support contract. It is also easier to find out what a Cisco device can and cannot do compared to a SOHO router that'll be off the market in a year. Their features should be marked with a *, as I see techs bitten by half-hearted implementations time and time again.

Consumer-grade is disposable. When the new shiny comes along, previous products are often neglected. I have more confidence that a Sonicwall product will be supported long-term than I do for TP-Link.

My biggest concern is allowing a partnership with any company that has all the control and leaves my customers with little recourse but to keep going down that single path they happened to choose some time in the past. And to be stuck in that path because of cost reasons.

We may be agreeing to disagree here, I don't know? But the exchange of information was very appreciated and I thank you both again.

A company could blow their IT budget one year on desktops, then the next lament their decision because they now they can't afford a laptop-only office. A reasonable person wouldn't conclude desktops are at fault. Infrastructure should be purchased with a 3 to 5 year hardware lifecycle in mind. I don't see a scenario where you'd have to replace old equipment in a year, apart from poor capacity planning (which would be a problem with any product).

 

[remixedcat]

Meraki's cloud cost is basically the hosting cost for the virtual wlan controller.

Have any of you used something like Extreme networks or Xirrus?

 

[KGB7]

A company could blow their IT budget one year on desktops, then the next lament their decision because they now they can't afford a laptop-only office. A reasonable person wouldn't conclude desktops are at fault. Infrastructure should be purchased with a 3 to 5 year hardware lifecycle in mind. I don't see a scenario where you'd have to replace old equipment in a year, apart from poor capacity planning (which would be a problem with any product).

Or you are dealing with a small none profit organization that has $30k in its bank account all year round. And there are many such organizations, thus they have to settle with hand me down equipment just to function.

Animal shelters and homeless shelters just to name a few, and there are many around the country. Most ran by a county with a tight budget.

 

[jdabbs]

Meraki's cloud cost is basically the hosting cost for the virtual wlan controller.

Have any of you used something like Extreme networks or Xirrus?

5 APs will run you $750 in licensing fees a year ($150/AP/yr). In comparison, a 5 AP wireless controller from Cisco can be bought for $760. Meraki's licensing fees can be an exceptionally poor value, and you would have a hard time convincing a small biz customer otherwise.

Or you are dealing with a small none profit organization that has $30k in its bank account all year round. And there are many such organizations, thus they have to settle with hand me down equipment just to function.

Animal shelters and homeless shelters just to name a few, and there are many around the country. Most ran by a county with a tight budget.

If they can't afford it, it's off the table in the first place. Organizations like the ones you mentioned are also less likely to consider ditching their hardware on a whim, so the scenario is even less plausible.

 

[remixedcat]

Have you use Extreme networks?

 

[KGB7]

If they can't afford it, it's off the table in the first place. Organizations like the ones you mentioned are also less likely to consider ditching their hardware on a whim, so the scenario is even less plausible.

You didnt see a scenario so i provided a few. They are still customers that need support, thus its no less plausible and still on the table.

There are over 1.5million none profit organizations in US. Most of them are small. So if you earn even a dollar from 500million organizations per month, thats $6million per year( before taxes and expanses, etc etc)

So yeah, its on the table.

 

[jdabbs]

Have you use Extreme networks?

I haven't--my company's routing needs are modest. They are also-rans in other product types. The vibe I've gotten from NANOG is that they are cheap for the performance you get, but esoteric bugs are a concern. I'm not exposed to them enough to know if that's changed in recent years. Also, purple.

You didnt see a scenario so i provided a few. They are still customers that need support, thus its no less plausible and still on the table.

There are over 1.5million none profit organizations in US. Most of them are small. So if you earn even a dollar from 500million organizations per month, thats $6million in your pocket.

So yeah, its on the table.

A 5545-X will run you about $11k. If there's a million non-profits out there with an annual IT budget of $500 or less, how many do you think I will sell? Being priced out of the market is not a difficult concept to grasp. And if you're wondering why I don't sell $1 products to tap into that market, that's a little more difficult, but some buzzwords like margins, opportunity cost, and cannibalization will about cover it.

 

[KGB7]

A 5545-X will run you about $11k. If there's a million non-profits out there with an annual IT budget of $500 or less, how many do you think I will sell? Being priced out of the market is not a difficult concept to grasp. And if you're wondering why I don't sell $1 products to tap into that market, that's a little more difficult, but some buzzwords like margins, opportunity cost, and cannibalization will about cover it.

What do you think happens to 5 year old equipment that Government retires? They sell it by the crate load to public and i know few people that make a living and support their families by selling the old hardware to moms and pops.

One guy buys it by the truck load, he fills a 25' box truck and takes it to a recycling center. He does this all day, 5 days a week all year round. Got 3 kids, a wife and a house. They dont drive Escalade or Benz, but they can afford what they need.


How many 5545-X does your company sell per year? 10, 50, 100? Lets say its 10 just to make the math simple. What about the rest of the 3-5 years? Now you have to sell cheaper products as well and provide support, yada yada etc etc.

Point is, there is money to be made every where, not just by selling $5k servers or switches, but selling the cheap products as well side by side. Netgear, Linksys, Asus are some of the examples.

Now if you have an exclusive and renewable contract every 5 years with Target or Walmart, then your company is doing good. But if your clients are smaller, then who is going to buy 5545-X when they go belly up or they can only afford or only need one 5545-X every 3-5 years?

At the end of the day, your company or any company has to decide what market/clients to pursue to have a constant long term income.

 

[jdabbs]

What do you think happens to 5 year old equipment that Government retires? They sell it by the crate load to public and i know few people that make a living and support their families by selling the old hardware to moms and pops.

One guy buys it by the truck load, he fills a 25' box truck and takes it to a recycling center. He does this all day, 5 days a week all year round. Got 3 kids, a wife and a house. They dont drive Escalade or Benz, but they can afford what they need.

I drew the short straw one week and won the opportunity to be a go-fer for DRMO, so I actually have first-hand experience with the process.

How many 5545-X does your company sell per year? 10, 50, 100? Lets say its 10 just to make the math simple. What about the rest of the 3-5 years? Now you have to sell cheaper products as well and provide support, yada yada etc etc.

Not necessarily. You sell 10 to some customers one year, then 10 to a different set of customers the next.

Point is, there is money to be made every where, not just by selling $5k servers or switches, but selling the cheap products as well side by side. Netgear, Linksys, Asus are some of the examples.

Margins tend to be smaller as products become a commodity. If I have five teams at my disposal, and ten product lines to choose from, I'd get the most from my labor by choosing the five most profitable lines for my teams to work on. Some vendors do well by making up for low margins by volume, but that may not be a wise course of action for everyone. "Because it's an option" isn't sufficient justification.

Now if you have an exclusive and renewable contract every 5 years with Target or Walmart, then your company is doing good. But if your clients are smaller, then who is going to buy 5545-X when they go belly up or they can only afford or only need one 5545-X every 3-5 years?

Diversity can help when the market is rough, but the strategy being pursued today is services/recurring fees (Cisco's acquisition of Meraki is a good example). Entering a market with fierce competition and dwindling margins is not a good long term strategy unless you have infrastructure already in place to provide a competitive advantage over rivals (ex: IBM selling their PC division to Lenovo).

At the end of the day, your company or any company has to decide what market/clients to pursue to have a constant long term income.

Sure. And some decisions work out better than others.

 

[KGB7]

Its much easier to lean against a solid business infrastructure that is available at your disposal, that gives you the resources to find new big clients every month or every year.

What about the rest of the people?

My point is, your infrastructure is not available to even a quarter of the people that are in similar business. But, there is a lot of money out there to be made and many people are taking advantage of smaller profits and margins by selling equipment by the truck load.

Now imagine your five teams, bought and sold trucks and trucks load of used equipment even at a $10 profit. Thats millions in profit.

Would you have to work harder? Sure you would. But more money you want to make the harder you have to work.

Take Walmart for example. They sell low quality and cheap products at low prices and at low margins. Yet Walmart is worth $446.95 Billion. Sure it took time, a lot of time. But business model 101 is; expand expand expand. And its much harder to expand when you or your company counts and worries so much about every profit margin on high end products.

Remember Home Depot? In the 90s and early 2000s, their stock split every other week. They grew faster then majority of the public could have imagined. They sold tons of cheap products. Even to this day, they dont make a penny on many of the products they sell.


Once again, there are money to be made in small margins and profits.


Any who... Been watching news on Sochi lately, Putin has made a big mess out of things that will hunt him for decades. Have you seen videos on CNN? Bath tubs in hotel rooms arent even glued together, fire hoses in each bathroom. I wonder what the free internet is like in hotels. I hope they arent using 56k USB Robotics modems.

.

 

[remixedcat]

What do you think happens to 5 year old equipment that Government retires? They sell it by the crate load to public and i know few people that make a living and support their families by selling the old hardware to moms and pops.

PM Me plox with the details I would love to get some gear so I can get my CCNA.

 

[Dreamslacker]

This is pretty much why Meraki won't gobble up market share. If Mom and Pop shops won't buy appropriate hardware even when their current setup is breaking down regularly, they sure aren't going to write Meraki (Cisco) a check every year.

They aren't even a mom & pop shop to begin with. And they weren't even willing to budget for a pair of Engenius Biz class APs, much less a Cisco WAP, Meraki, or Colubris for that matter.

To be fair, I've seen even more extreme cases. At my previous company, we were supporting a News Corp subsidiary with well over 40 staffers in a single office. Most of the users are using laptops and mobile devices so WiFi is a must.
They were surviving on a meager Dlink DAP-1150 from the days when the office was just 12 man strong. I have no idea how D-link managed to make their WAP handle that many clients but needless to say, wifi was barely usable.
They didn't even have a biz class network switch. Just a hob-cobbled mix of 5-port, 8-port & 16-port 10/100 Linksys/ D'link dumb switches collected over the years.
The main gateway was a SSG-20 (non-upgraded model) and they were running it without the subscription because they didn't want to pay for one.

 

[KGB7]

PM Me plox with the details I would love to get some gear so I can get my CCNA.

THE Cisco equipment is a niche, Uncle Sam hands it down to lower departments like its Christmas at orphanage. If you want old butt Dell or HP desktop computers at a bargain, then hit the Craigslist.

Sorry dude, but your best bet is ebay or Craigslist.


Drive down to your local recycling center, you will find tons of used computer equipment. You will have to go through piles and piles of equipment, but you can find some cool things and take home for free. Bring gloves, not for the winter cold weather, but to protect your hands. As you will have to dive through a metric ton of used monitors, pc boards and anything you could ever imagine pc related.
Flat screen monitors, 60" projection TV's, Dell servers. Free to take home.


Im not trying to be unhelpful, but what you may need is simply out of my reach. My guys might run in to it once every six month. The business high end or even middle end Cisco products are a commodity thats hard to come by.
Ill ask around but i cant promise anything.


.

 

[L&LD]

I am still reading and following this discussion, but I do not see a simple:

X plus Y will get you Z solution for z$$$$'s that I can take to anyone - even if I think they have the budget for a business class network 'solution'.


The thing that scares most customers off: monthly/yearly/continuous/ridiculous/ever increasing fees.

As I've mentioned before: business class products may be bullet proof. But the cost of that stability is not in the realm of most networking budgets. And I agree with KGB7 that that is the bigger market (not at the $1 range, of course - but also not at the range that just the big boys can play in though).


The example that Dreamslacker stated with the Dlink DAP-1150 is more typical of what I encounter a few times a year.

Giving such an setup an RT-N66U/AC66U/AC68U or two (or three) is worlds above what they had. And the bank account doesn't blow up either.

I must admit being a little surprised with this thread (unless there is more coming...). I thought it may change my mind and that I might be trying to change my customers minds too a little harder next time.


The reality seems though; that unless someone else (gov't, corporation, grant, donation, etc.) is paying for the business class products and services that are deemed 'bullet proof' - no business 'owner' will.


Consider the following scenario:

$ 0 - one ISP supplied modem (no cost for our calculations).
$ 80 - One 'Smart Switch' (GS108T-200NAS).
$800 - Four AC/1750/AC1900 class routers (soon to be AC2300).
$400 - Nineteen 8 Port GB Switches - One on each router port and the three remaining GS108T's ports.

$1280 Total hardware costs (one time, hopefully) plus whatever I can get away with charging for this setup (also a one time cost, btw).

What we get:
A possible 152 directly connected GB ports and at least 2(bands) x 4(routers) x 20(clients per band per router) or another 160 wireless clients for a total of over 300 connected devices .

With even the consumer routers specified above, the total network capacity represented above is enormous for a 'small business' and it is good enough and realistic too; depending on the business and the way the network is used. This cannot be denied at least for a basic network setup.

When the above is almost* at the maximum possibility I can present to a customer - why would they consider spending $11K for a single piece of equipment along with a monthly maintenance fee on top?

The answer: they wouldn't.

Not arguing what's 'better'. Just stating facts.


With the proper networking design, given the above equipment the possibility to serve even a 150 person office space is there (easily).

Yes; it is not the most 'secure'. Yes it will not excel performance-wise if everyone shows up for work at once. Yes it will be prone to failure from the ~$20 and up parts that it's made up from.

But even if I can convince the customer to double my fee and every single part ($2,560 hardware only... and of course not necessary to double everything; just trying to make a point) we are still light years away from any business class level network that I've ever been offered on behalf of my customers. With no recurring fees. With no (endless) maintenance contract(s).

With no going out of business sign next month either.

The best part? In 3 to 5 years we get to do it all again and still be far, far ahead ($$$$) than having committed (or be committed? ) to the alternatives (suggested?) in this thread.



For a setup like the above; what would it cost with pure business class products, including any 'required' yearly maintenance fees?


I am guessing at least out of the price range of GM/Ford/VW/Subaru loving people.



*The maximum theoretical capacity can be up to ~251 clients x 5 subnets all linked together with Static Routes (4 routers plus the GS108T) for just over 1250 wired clients and at least 400 wireless clients for a total of over 1600 devices. This is easily achieved with using greater than 8 port 'dumb' switches.

The actual client capacity would be closer to the 'normal' 48 port switches we can easily buy and connect directly to each router (so limited to 912 wired clients plus ~400 wireless clients) and take into account the limits the actual clients put on the network (on average) of course, but this is still a possible 'huge' network for very, very, very little money.

Of course; the above 'maximum' is not anything I would ever suggest - but it does show the scaling theoretically possible with consumer equipment. And allows me to comfortably recommend a single AC class router (plus 4x 8 port GB switches) for more modest environments without too much hesitation.


This is what a rough schematic might look like:

ISP's MODEM => GS108T

GS108T => RT-ACxxU x 4

Each:
RT-ACxxU => GB Swith x 4

Each:
GB Switch => Computer, Printer, Scanner, or NAS
(With each interrelated (logical) work group using a single GB Switch as much as possible)


GS108T => IP address: 192.168.1.1

1st RT-ACxxU's => IP address: 192.168.2.1

2nd RT-ACxxU's => IP address: 192.168.3.1

3rd RT-ACxxU's => IP address: 192.168.4.1

4th RT-ACxxU's => IP address: 192.168.5.1

 

[jdabbs]

PM Me plox with the details I would love to get some gear so I can get my CCNA.

If you are serious about taking the CCNA, go with Cisco Learning Labs. There's the novelty factor in owning your own routers, but as a study resource, you're better off preparing with their scenarios.

I am still reading and following this discussion, but I do not see a simple:

X plus Y will get you Z solution for z$$$$'s that I can take to anyone - even if I think they have the budget for a business class network 'solution'.

The reason people aren't providing a one-size-fits-all solution is because that's a Billy Bob mindset. You should be recommending a solution based on the customers' requirements (and in practice, more often what they're willing to pay for). The ASA 5505 is Cisco's smallest enterprise-grade firewall, but it'd be overkill for a three person office.

As I've mentioned before: business class products may be bullet proof. But the cost of that stability is not in the realm of most networking budgets. And I agree with KGB7 that that is the bigger market (not at the $1 range, of course - but also not at the range that just the big boys can play in though).

If Cisco made a $200 firewall based on their ASA platform, they could forget selling any $650 firewalls. Cannibalization is a threat any vendor has to take under consideration.

The reality seems though; that unless someone else (gov't, corporation, grant, donation, etc.) is paying for the business class products and services that are deemed 'bullet proof' - no business 'owner' will.

My company provides cloud services. Customers use our software to operate their business. Many customers opt for reliable hardware--sometimes after a bad experience with the alternative. For other businesses, an Internet disruption isn't the end of the world. Getting reliable hardware to provide WiFi for the pizza place would be nice, but in terms of value, it may be wiser to invest that extra money elsewhere.

$ 0 - one ISP supplied modem (no cost for our calculations).
$ 80 - One 'Smart Switch' (GS108T-200NAS).
$800 - Four AC/1750/AC1900 class routers (soon to be AC2300).
$400 - Nineteen 8 Port GB Switches - One on each router port and the three remaining GS108T's ports.

$1280 Total hardware costs (one time, hopefully) plus whatever I can get away with charging for this setup (also a one time cost, btw).

What we get:
A possible 152 directly connected GB ports and at least 2(bands) x 4(routers) x 20(clients per band per router) or another 160 wireless clients for a total of over 300 connected devices .

With even the consumer routers specified above, the total network capacity represented above is enormous for a 'small business' and it is good enough and realistic too; depending on the business and the way the network is used. This cannot be denied at least for a basic network setup.

When the above is almost* at the maximum possibility I can present to a customer - why would they consider spending $11K for a single piece of equipment along with a monthly maintenance fee on top?

The answer: they wouldn't.

Not arguing what's 'better'. Just stating facts.

This must be what the 802.11th circle of hell looks like.

You forgot:

$3 - Cat5 o' nine tails to whip the person supporting it.

Companies don't buy 24/48 port switches because they have money to burn. It's because the alternatives are much, much worse. Too many bottlenecks, too many points of failure. You haven't lived until you've gone cubicle to cubicle looking for a malfunctioning 5-port switch.

70 users per router is a bit optimistic, to put it mildly.

• Administrative burden of keeping wireless users corralled to just one network (guess they don't need to roam)
• CPU utilization (file transfers between router groups would traverse a WAN link)
• 70 users on a consumer-grade device (Nope!)

With the proper networking design, given the above equipment the possibility to serve even a 150 person office space is there (easily).

Yes; it is not the most 'secure'. Yes it will not excel performance-wise if everyone shows up for work at once. Yes it will be prone to failure from the ~$20 and up parts that it's made up from.

But even if I can convince the customer to double my fee and every single part ($2,560 hardware only... and of course not necessary to double everything; just trying to make a point) we are still light years away from any business class level network that I've ever been offered on behalf of my customers. With no recurring fees. With no (endless) maintenance contract(s).

With no going out of business sign next month either.

The best part? In 3 to 5 years we get to do it all again and still be far, far ahead ($$$$) than having committed (or be committed? ) to the alternatives (suggested?) in this thread.



For a setup like the above; what would it cost with pure business class products, including any 'required' yearly maintenance fees?


I am guessing at least out of the price range of GM/Ford/VW/Subaru loving people.

Any company that implements this deserves what they get.

You have a solution without evaluating the problem, and you'd probably want a solution that would actually work before comparing it to other solutions.

If I were an IT consultant, I'd spec hardware based on:

number of users
distribution of users (across floors, in offices or cubicle farms, etc)
network organization (workgroups/VLANs/subnets)
server infrastructure
network utilization (both LAN and Internet usage)
overall bandwidth usage
Point of diminishing returns (in practice it may cost much more to provide coverage to 95% of users instead of 70%)
future requirements

I'd have also a general idea of idea on what the customer was willing to spend, and tailor my options accordingly.