MoCa - Help With Network Please - Newbie

[ranger_rick]

Hello everyone: I am new to the forum and received two goCoax 2.5 boxes for Christmas and had a couple questions regarding setting them up in my house. I do understand the basics of networking and MoCa (at least i like to think i do lol) but I am still not sure if my how think it should be step will work or cause other issues throughout the house.

I have two entry points for coax from the cable company. One upper and one lower.

The upper goes straight to WIFI cable modem and that is where i have my desktop computer and the WIFI signal for the house broadcasts from that point.

The lower coax entry splits. One side goes to the Cable Phone Modem and the other supplies signal to cable boxes on the first and second floor.

What I plan on doing is adding a MoCa box at the upper entry point and another on the first floor and setting up another computer or whatever.

I am attaching image of what "i think" might work.

Looking forward to your input. Thank you in advance RR

 

[Datalink]

1. Is there more than one cable run between the two floors where one cable run isn't in use? If so, you could use that unused cable run as an internal MoCA supported internal ethernet system, where you wouldn't need a POE filter or splitter in the MoCA system. This leads in to #2, below.

2. Have you checked behind the existing wallplates and the structured wiring cabinet to determine if you have structured wiring installed but not put to use? Structured wiring is a cable bundle usually consisting of two RG-6 cables for satellite/cable use, one Cat-5e for ethernet and one Cat-3 (possibly Cat-5/5e) for telephones. This will depend to some degree on how old the house. With structured wiring installed, you wouldn't have to use the adapters.

3. I would simply connect the upstairs GoCoax adapter to the cable for the cable box and do the same downstairs. I don't see any need to connect the adapters to the upstairs cable splitter. Is that why you were thinking of installing the splitter upstairs?

4. Installing the adapters on the cable box cable system would mean that you would need the POE filter on the downstairs cable where that cable enters the home, and and you would need to replace the existing splitter that is used to support the cable boxes with a MoCA 2.0 compliant splitter from Holland Electronics for example:

http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/catalog.php?product_id=catv-moca-splitter

5. Are you using the cable boxes in a whole home pvr setup where you can watch a tv show that is recorded on the other cable box. If so, that would mean that you're already using a MoCA system which is most likely using the MoCA D-Low Band. That would restrict the operation of the GoCoax adapters to the D-High band. The frequency bands for MoCA D Band are seen in the spec for MoCA 2.0/2.5 pages 9 and 13:

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA2/sp...and_2.5_Device_RF_Characteristics-160808d.pdf

That would also mean that you should have a POE filter already installed on the incoming cable downstairs.

 

[ranger_rick]

Thank you Datalink for your prompt and informative reply

1. unfortunately, there is only the single cable run. this an older home and all the cable originally ran from the basement and then through the house (however I will double check) the cable company added the upper cable access point.

2. again, older home built circa 1932 (Montgomery Ward kit house and the original cable was retro fit)

3. hmmmm, i not sure i understand? I was doing the upper split for the internet single from the modem to the goCoax and then out to the existing house coax then picking th internet single on the first floor with the second MoCa box (diagram attached without cable boxes - does this make sense?)

4. understood. i have yet to do exact assessment of the existing cable run and will replace any splitter with the compliant hardware and will add POE to both upper lower access point. there are numerous cables running along the basement ceiling and i be sure to sort them out before adding the MoCa boxes

5. no TiVo or recorded TV programming

 

[CaptainSTX]

Start off simple and get the MOCA setup working in a test setup. Test in the room where your router is. This is where one of the MOCA adapters is going to have to be.

TEST

1. Connect adapter 1 to a LAN port on your router.
2. Take a piece of coaxial cable and connect between adapter 1 and adapter 2.
3. Connect your upstairs PC to MOCA adapter 2 using an Ethernet cable.
4. Power up both MOCA adapters and confirm that the coaxial cable is working as a LAN cable. Indicator lights on adapters will give you a clue but try connecting to web sites and run a few speed tests. If everything checks out then you are ready to go into production mode and if you experience problems in the production mode you will need to trouble shoot you coaxial network but at least you know the adapters are working.

PRODUCTION (Before starting locate any splitters in your home and verify and/or replace them with splitters that will pass in excess 1 Ghz. Normal CATV splitters installed by a MSO may be limited to 900 Mhz.)

1. Upstairs connect both your cable modem and adapter 1. Use a splitter if necessary. Plug the LAN port on the adapter into a LAN port on your router. Plug your PC back into the router.

2. Now go to any coaxial cable outlet in your home and connect adapter 2 to it and then check for LAN connectivity by plugging a PC into its LAN port. Use a splitter if necessary to connect both adapter 2 and a TV.

3. For any coaxial terminations that aren't used install terminators to reduce signal leakage.

4. Inside your demarc point which is usually outside the house install a MOCA filter before the splitter feeding your upstairs and downstairs service points on the line side/incoming side of the splitter.

 

[Datalink]

I agree with @CaptainSTX regarding the test. Running a speedtest with that configuration, where the two adapters are connected with a very short test run of RG-6 will show the max data rate you can expect to see with those adapters. Before you run the test, configure both adapters to use the entire D Band and set the encryption code. That should require you to log into or access the adapter’s configuration page to set those parameters. I’m assuming here that GoCoax has built in a configuration page of some type.

When that is done, reconnect your pc to your modem via its original Ethernet cable.

At this point, I’ll disagree with @CaptainSTX. There is no good reason to install a splitter upstairs in order to connect the adapter, which then connects to the other cable set that runs downstairs. Doing so will create an internal house cable loop with the two loop ends running back to the local tap. Those ends are probably connected to separate ports on the tap. So, that potential loop is not necessary nor desireable. Your experiment to determine if the adapters are serviceable and to determine what max data rate you can expect to see also proves that the adapters do not require any connection to an outside cable run. All you really need is a cable run between the two adapters in order to provide the service that you’re looking for. Personal opinion, in your case, the lower cable runs are the most appropriate to connect to, as they run from the basement to the top floor, according to your jpg 3. Hopefully the upstairs cable port is close enough to the switch so that you can connect the upstairs adapter to the switch.

Downstairs, you’ll need the POE filter as shown on jpg 3 and a MoCA 2.0 qualified splitter. One item to keep in mind, there have been reports of modems performing badly when a MoCA system is in operation. To alleviate that, MoCA users have installed a MoCA filter on the modem itself to prevent the modem from attempting to process the MoCA data that is on the cable network. I haven’t seen any reports of problems with cable phone modems, but, keep this point in mind for future reference.

To trace the RG-59 / RG-6 cables, you can buy an Ethernet/cable tester such as the following:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Y75B5Y/?tag=snbforums-20

https://www.tripplite.com/network-c...-cat6-phone-coax-cable-installations~N044000R


There are cable mappers available as well, which will allow you to quickly identify which cable run is which, as shown in the video links in the following pages:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-Coax-Continuity-Analog-Volt-Datacomm-Tester/50278121


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00696265Q/?tag=snbforums-20


Using something like this will save a few runs up and down the stairs.

 

[CaptainSTX]

I did say use a splitter if necessary. Some MOCA adapters I have used do have a splitter built in others do not. I am not familiar with the adapters the OP is using so my suggestion was to cover all possibilities.

In any network the fewer devices, couplers or splitters you have is usually optimal.

 

[ranger_rick]

thank you both for the input. i will test as suggested but its obvious that i need to do more investigation before a fully deploy the goCoax boxes. i will need to trace the cables a find all the splits. most are in the basement ceiling but i think there is one in the attic as well (service call several years ago had the tech in the attic)

i took a closer look to the outside of the house. i should have taken a picture but if memory serves its looks as if there is one coax coming down to a cable company box and from there it splits - there is cable heading down to the basement and one going back to second floor.

ideally i would be putting my POE at this point but i am reluctant to "vandalize" (lol) the cable companies box (actually i would do it but my wife would probably have a fit lol)

to add to the confusion, i also have NYNEX box (telephone) on the side of the house with a wire coming off the pole and from box into the house. it may make another connection on the outside but again i should have taken a picture.

assuming my initial tests are successful i think the biggest complication will be tracing/mapping lines and replacing splitters - definitely need the testing equipment.

 

[CaptainSTX]

took a closer look to the outside of the house. i should have taken a picture but if memory serves its looks as if there is one coax coming down to a cable company box and from there it splits - there is cable heading down to the basement and one going back to second floor.

It is OK to install small pieces of passive equipment in the box. The demarc point is where the cable companies plant joins up with your interior wiring which you own and is your responsibility to maintain.

Once you know what the best speed is that your adapters will provide you can hook up in production mode and see what happens before replacing splitters. Also if you find splitters with a branch running to a location that you don't need consider removing the splitter and using a barrel connector to connect the two cables together.

 

[ranger_rick]

this is the POE i have, i think its up to spec:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DC8IEE6/?tag=snbforums-20

i need to spend some time in the basement tracing the wires up. the second floor cable entry is simple enough because it comes straight from the box outside and then up to the second floor. the basement is where i seen a few splitters. again i need to map but will test the new equipment and get baseline data before proceeding.

 

[Datalink]

While you're mapping out the cables, consider permanently disconnecting any cables that you don't need or intend to use and combine the "in use" cables onto fewer splitters. Ideally, the fewer number of splitters that are in use, the better, due to the signal drop that you see when you go thru any given splitter.

From your previous post, it looks like a trip up to the attic is in order, and as @CaptainSTX indicated, if you can replace a splitter with an F-81 connector, that would be a good step to take as it gets rid of any signal loss thru the splitter and more importantly, gets rid of any high frequency stop band which would drop the higher frequency MoCA D bands. A typical splitter runs from 5 to 1002 Mhz for normal cable internet and tv use, where you need MoCA 2.0 qualified splitters that operate up to 1675 Mhz on the inside ports. This also applies to any splitters in the basement. Any splitter that goes undiscovered could scupper your plans to use your MoCA adapters.

With splitters installed, that makes mapping the cable system more difficult. Your probably going to have to remove every cable from every splitter, one by one so that you can trace the test cable in question, in theory, from one end to its other end. Hopefully there are no splitters buried in a wall somewhere where they can't be seen. That would require more sophisticated test equipment to look for the signal loss thru the splitters.

In theory, if you can match every end of every visible cable that should give you some confidence that there aren't any hidden splitters or cables, but, keep this in mind as one never knows.

I don't know how the cable mapper with the multiple cable Identifiers will work when there's a splitter in the system. Either it will identify all of the connected cable identifiers installed in various rooms, or it will be thoroughly confused. Maybe someone who has used a cable mapper with splitters in the system can comment on that. Worst case scenario, you use something like the Sperry test tool and run around each room to identify any cables that might be connected thru a splitter. After all of that exercise, it'll be miller time, or whatever your favorite drink happens to be.

Fwiw ......

 

[degrub]

was the attic connection for an old satellite tv antenna (directTV for example) or OTA antenna ?

 

[ranger_rick]

I am a Guinness drinker and yes it sounds as if the cable mapping will be challenge but fortunately its a small house and there is only 2 cable outlets per floor (and 1 of the 2 cable outlets on the first floor I installed myself) Where its going to get challenging is there might be extra coax cables that have been disconnected.

One thing that has always puzzled me is, that in the basement, the cable company installed a single port signal booster during a service call several years ago. It plugs into an outlet and has a single coax out. I can not remember the reason for the service call but if I had to guess there was difficulty renting movies and this was an attempt at fixing the issue (of course the issue was at the cable provider and had nothing to do with what was going on at the actual house but its been down there ever since)

attic: no clue I am sure there was an outside antenna at some point in the life of the house but there has never been satellite

 

[ranger_rick]

this is just for starters
off the three way spilt is yet another dual split.

this all needs to cleaned up and sorted out!

I am wondering if I shouldn't sort out the coax in the basement with the intent on splitting the signal between the phone modem (basement) and the two outlets on the first floor and then run new coax from the second floor cable entry to the master bedroom which has a TV/cable box.

obviously, one MoCa box would be off that second floor cable entry as well

does that make sense??

 

[CaptainSTX]

this is just for starters
off the three way spilt is yet another dual split.

this all needs to cleaned up and sorted out!

I am wondering if I shouldn't sort out the coax in the basement with the intent on splitting the signal between the phone modem (basement) and the two outlets on the first floor and then run new coax from the second floor cable entry to the master bedroom which has a TV/cable box.

obviously, one MoCa box would be off that second floor cable entry as well

does that make sense??

If the AMP is still used it might need to be replaced with an AMP that is engineered to pass signals in both directions if your MOCA signals need to pass through it.

 

[ranger_rick]

If the AMP is still used it might need to be replaced with an AMP that is engineered to pass signals in both directions if your MOCA signals need to pass through it.

can you (or someone) recommend a correct amp?

 

[CaptainSTX]

can you (or someone) recommend a correct amp?

First read the labels on your existing AMP as it might be two way and rated for MOCA. Then just search for CATV AMPs on Amazon and it will say if it is two way and will work with MOCA. It must be designed to do both.

 

[ranger_rick]

this what I have, not MoCa rated

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037N74SS/?tag=snbforums-20

 

[CaptainSTX]

this what I have, not MoCa rated

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037N74SS/?tag=snbforums-20

It is not MOCA rated because the frequency range isn't high enough. It will need to be replaced if signals from your MOCA adapters need to pass through it.

 

[Datalink]

"It will need to be replaced if signals from your MOCA adapters need to pass through it."

"If" is the operative word here. If you look at the picture of that amp, you will see one power cable that runs out of the picture to the left, one cable that comes into the home from the outside from the right, connecting to the amp input, entry point is also out of the picture on the right, and one cable that runs to the splitter from the amp output (visible in the picture).

Your MoCA network, using the cables that run to the upper floors probably all run thru that splitter, and the amp itself has nothing to do with the MoCA circuit.

You need to trace all of the cables to determine where they start and end. If you have another splitter somewhere in the basement that leads to that splitter in the basement, you should consider replacing the cables that run through that other splitter enroute to the pictured splitter. Best thing to do is run all of the cables thru one splitter to avoid cascading splitters and cascade signal loss.

Don't worry about replacing the amp until and unless you can prove that its actually part of the MoCA circuit. If not, leave it in place. There is a chance, that if you have more than one splitter in use, that cleaning up the cables and going down to one splitter might result in a situation where you don't need the amp. The problem with amplifiers is that they hide crappy cable signal conditions. It might be worth an experiment, if there's any cleaning up of the cables and splitters, to remove the amp and check the signal level on any tv boxes to see where their at. That might be rather interesting to see, if you haven't had a look at the actual signal levels for a long period of time.

 

[ranger_rick]

What is optimal signal strength I should be seeing at the TV boxes? I will test signal strength with and without AMP attached to get baseline data

Here are my thoughts on the cable routing:

The coax comes off the pole and down the side of the house to a cable company enclosure and splits : one side of the split goes down to the basement and the other back up the outside the house and into a small upstairs bedroom which is used as an "office". It is on that room that the current wifi modem/router combo lives.

1. put a POE in the enclosure before the split. coax comes off the pole to poe and then splits one side enters into basement and the other goes up and enters into the second floor bedroom. I am guessing that maybe I should also replace the splitter in the box with MoCa compliant splitter??

2. basement: clean up the cables, cables splitters and amp. its not overly complex. the basement coax serves the first floor and voice modem (which lives in the basement). there are only two cable outlets on the first floor. I am thinking about purchasing a MoCa compatible splitter/AMP combo* and delete the existing splitters and amp. *if an AMP is needed - will test signal strength without amp installed. if I don't need an AMP I will use a MoCa three way splitter.

3. second floor bedroom: split the coax. one side will run new cable to the adjacent master bedroom and connect to cable box. the other side of the coax split will go into a goCoax box and out to the wifi modem/router combo. ethernet cable will go from the wifi modem/router combo to a switch and from the switch to the goCoax box. I want to eliminate the old cable runs in the attic. Running new cable along the baseboard of the "office" is not an issue.

sorry I wasn't able to diagram this today - will work on it tomorrow.

thoughts?? suggestions or improvements to the above???

thank you everyone for your help thus far!!! RR