Upgrading router for a rural multi-building wifi/wired network

[vinylgrrl]

Hi everyone. We're at our wit's end trying to figure this out, so hopefully y'all can provide some suggestions to get us on the right track.

We live in a pretty rural area and get LoS internet from our ISP (stable at ~25 Mbps). This passes from the ISP's box into a central router (currently an old D-Link Dir655) that services 4 hardwired cable runs connected to Unifi outdoor wireless access points and other hardwired devices in multiple buildings in a small compound. Please see the attached image for our current network setup. We've been running this for 10 years with relatively few problems. However, the ISP recently commented that our router is super old and probably should be replaced. We have maybe 10 total devices maximum connected at any given time (wired and wifi). Our usage is mostly general internet browsing, email, wifi calling, and occasional video streaming.

We first tried replacing the existing D-Link with a TP-Link AC1900 ArcherA8. This worked for some of the network, but appeared to be unable to transmit a sufficiently robust signal along our longest cable run (~400 feet). I was also never successfully able to login to the router interface via a wired connection.

Thinking the issue might be with the Unifi WAPs, we then tried replacing the D-Link with an Amplifi HD router (also from Ubiquiti). While this did work for all of the wired connections in the network, none of the WAPs worked with this router (Ubiquiti says that our Unifi outdoor WAPs are "legacy" products and may not work with newer stuff, which makes sense).

So now we're back to square one. We'd like to get a new router that will work with our existing WAPs, if at all possible. Our budget is under $300. All our switches are TP-Link TL-SG105 units and we're not running any vLANs. We don't care too much about the wifi range of the router (it covers the road between 2 of the buildings, but is not a primary wifi access point). Our main need is a router that will work with our existing Unifi WAPs.

Any suggestions or comments on our existing setup would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

[Tech9]

What about UCG-Ultra? It's $129.

Cloud Gateway Ultra - Ubiquiti Store

Compact Cloud Gateway with 30+ UniFi device / 300+ client support, 1 Gbps IPS routing, and multi-WAN load balancing.

store.ui.com

Don't know what model your Ubiquiti APs are, may be adoptable in UniFi Network.

 

[vinylgrrl]

What about UCG-Ultra? It's $129.

Cloud Gateway Ultra - Ubiquiti Store

Compact Cloud Gateway with 30+ UniFi device / 300+ client support, 1 Gbps IPS routing, and multi-WAN load balancing.

store.ui.com

Don't know what model your Ubiquiti APs are, may be adoptable in UniFi Network.

We chatted with Ubiquiti and they said our WAPs (they're Unifi AP outdoor 5Ghz units from 2013 or so) "may not work" with the cloud gateway. We'd rather not try something that we've already been told might not work. Thanks though!

 

[Tech9]

"may not work" with the cloud gateway

Take the answer as "may not be adoptable". They will continue working the same way as stand alone APs, if not adoptable. They definitely "don't work" with D-Link or TP-Link router as per Ubiquiti understanding of "work".

our longest cable run (~400 feet)

Max 328ft or about 100m. You need booster for more. Exceeding specs limits - not guaranteed.

 

[vinylgrrl]

Take the answer as "may not be adoptable". They will continue working the same way as stand alone APs, if not adoptable. They definitely "don't work" with D-Link or TP-Link router as per Ubiquiti understanding of "work".

All of our existing APs have been adopted in the network controller software we've used for years to manage the APs (is this an issue?)...so *theoretically* they should continue to function (i.e., broadcast a signal) with a UCG-ultra?

I guess they should theoretically continue to function in general, as they're hardwired to the router, but that wasn't the case in our prior attempts. With the Amplifi router, the WAPs showed up in the Amplifi app and broadcasted a signal for a minute or 2, then they'd stop broadcasting.

Max 328ft or about 100m. You need booster for more. Exceeding specs limits - not guaranteed.

Just re-measured...the cable run is actually 393 feet (for precision's sake). We've been alerted about the maximum before but have never had problems with the signal on this run in 10+ years (until we started swapping out routers, that is). The Amplifi router had no issues transmitting along this run for the wired connections, it was just the WAP that wouldn't broadcast.

Could you direct me somewhere to learn more about the booster you mentioned?

 

[Tech9]

I see the issue now. This existing controller detail changes the game. Your old controller software can't manage any of the new gateways and you can't have two controllers on one network with built-in controller gateway. In this case keep existing APs separate from any new Ubiquiti products. It theory you are good with any other router/gateway, but don't count on exceeding Ethernet cable length. As far as I understand this is the main issue and trying different routers won't help.

See this:

 

[vinylgrrl]

It theory you are good with any other router/gateway, but don't count on exceeding Ethernet cable length. As far as I understand this is the main issue and trying different routers won't help.

See this:

Thanks for the video, I'll check it out. I guess I'm scratching my head since this crazy old D-Link has been transmitting flawlessly for a decade+....is there anything to look for in the specs of new routers that could point to "beating" the 100m max? For example, the Amplifi HD had no problem transmitting along the cable length either. Clearly it can be done, I just need to find another router that can do so.

Alternatively, if we un-adopted the WAPs from the original Unifi controller software, would they be adoptable by the new Unifi gateway controller software? When we installed the Amplifi HD router, there were icons in the app for the older outdoor WAPs (as options to name the different connections), so now I'm wondering if the original controller software was the issue there.

 

[Tech9]

would they be adoptable by the new Unifi gateway controller software?

I don't know, most likely not if >10 years old. You can test it by installing the current software controller and see what happens. Amplifi is a consumer oriented product and it runs on different than UniFi software. We can't draw conclusions based on results seen on completely different products. About >100m Ethernet line - you've been lucky in the past. This is not guaranteed to continue in the future. In theory this cable outdoors may have degraded in 10 years just enough to cause you issues.

 

[vinylgrrl]

this cable outdoors may have degraded

It's actually buried in a conduit....we tested it with a CAT5 tester and it seems to be fine? Certainly something to keep an eye on though, thanks.

We're going to do a test tomorrow with the Amplifi router (before we send it back) by directly plugging in an extra WAP that hasn't been adopted in our controller software (to see if the Amplifi app will adopt it). I'll report back on the results.

 

[Tech9]

We have somewhat similar conversation here:

Assistance with Large Wifi Network over multiple Buildings Ubiquiti

Hi All, I've been away a while but here I am back with the big one :) Hope you are all doing well out there? Wondering if some of you clever folk @Tech9 @ColinTaylor @SomeWhereOverTheRainBow @thiggins etc could assist with a project I am involved in. Please note I am a tech hobby guy and not...

www.snbforums.com

...but starting from scratch. At some point you have to upgrade some of your equipment. There is better hardware available now compared to what we had 10+ years ago. New APs with your 10dBi antennas and more sensitive radios may increase your coverage area further and be compatible with the new gateways for a modern UniFi system.

 

[vinylgrrl]

We're going to do a test tomorrow with the Amplifi router (before we send it back) by directly plugging in an extra WAP that hasn't been adopted in our controller software (to see if the Amplifi app will adopt it). I'll report back on the results.

Okay we did this test this morning. The Amplifi "saw" the unadopted AP, but we couldn't get the AP to broadcast a signal while hardwired to the router. We're done with the Amplifi....it's being returned tomorrow.

We had a Netgear AC1900 R6900 laying around (previously unused), so I tried setting it up as another experiment. Again, our wired connections through the switches were great (full 25 Mbps), but the Unifi WAPs would only broadcast a signal for 2 minutes before halting their broadcast.

So I guess I'm revising my original question to: Why do our Unifi WAPs stop broadcasting after initially receiving a wired signal? Could this be a router setting that's wonky? In the case of the Netgear router, clearly we're not trying to control the WAPs with the router...we're just sending them a signal via the hardwired cable.

Do we just need a really "dumb" router (that JUST divides our incoming ISP signal into 4 lines) and not one of the "smart" routers that seem to be the norm these days? Could our switches (there's one on each of the 4 hardwired connections that divides the signal into a wired connection and a WAP) be the issue here?

I'm completely baffled by this.

 

[Tech9]

Why do our Unifi WAPs stop broadcasting after initially receiving a wired signal?

In general UniFi APs will stop broadcasting if the uplink monitor detects uplink unavailable condition. There may be differences between models. If all the APs stop broadcasting at once - focus on the controller and its connection to the network. This Ethernet run exceeding maximum length for stable communication is also potential point of failure.

Do we just need a really "dumb" router

Most home routers have LAN ports no different than dumb switch. There is nothing smart applied there. In your case what the router sees as APs is mostly irrelevant. The controller has to see the APs. Not sure why is this controller used, actually. You mentioned simple flat network. Perhaps your APs have stand alone mode and don't need the controller?

 

[degrub]

From your ISP connection put in a recent router. Whatever brand. From one LAN port, connect a 5 port 10/100 Mbit/s switch. Don't use a Gigabit (1000 Mbit/s) switch port. 100 Mbit/s is less power sensitive than trying to run at Gigabit/s speeds. Don;t connect any of the other cable runs to the router LAN ports unless just local PC.

See if that fixes your issue.

Is your >100 m cable CAT 5 or CAT 5e ?

Are your WAP power injectors also 10+ years old ? If so, they may be getting marginal as well and the WAP is not seeing enough power through the POE injector.

 

[vinylgrrl]

Perhaps your APs have stand alone mode and don't need the controller?

When I say "controller" I'm referring to the Unifi controller software...we don't leave this running. It's only used to set the passwords for the WAPs, etc, After we've adopted an AP and made all the settings changes, we quit the software. We don't have some physical controller box or something like that, it's just the software Unifi provided with the WAPs and used for initial installation/setup. Sorry if I was less than clear on that previously. I'll investigate to see if there's a standalone mode.

See if that fixes your issue.

Is your >100 m cable CAT 5 or CAT 5e ?

Are your WAP power injectors also 10+ years old ? If so, they may be getting marginal as well and the WAP is not seeing enough power through the POE injector.

Excellent suggestion (I was starting to wonder if putting a switch between the router and the cable runs would help). We're going to give this a try as soon as we dig up an appropriate switch. Is the Netgear R6900 sufficiently "recent" to try this out?

All cable runs that go to the central router are CAT6 cables.

The PoEs are older and this is also a good suggestion to swap them out. Thanks!

 

[degrub]

The POE injectors seem to have been ok with some equipment. i don;t know that they are an issue, but something to try if the AP disconnects from the LAN. Usually, 25-40 USD each, but you will have to get ones that match the WAP expected Voltage and maximum current needed. Your existing injectors should have the spec on them for DC output and AC input.

 

[degrub]

When I say "controller" I'm referring to the Unifi controller software...we don't leave this running. It's only used to set the passwords for the WAPs, etc, After we've adopted an AP and made all the settings changes, we quit the software. We don't have some physical controller box or something like that, it's just the software Unifi provided with the WAPs and used for initial installation/setup. Sorry if I was less than clear on that previously. I'll investigate to see if there's a standalone mode.


Excellent suggestion (I was starting to wonder if putting a switch between the router and the cable runs would help). We're going to give this a try as soon as we dig up an appropriate switch. Is the Netgear R6900 sufficiently "recent" to try this out?

All cable runs that go to the central router are CAT6 cables.

The PoEs are older and this is also a good suggestion to swap them out. Thanks!

Above, i thought you said the long run was CAT5 ?

 

[vinylgrrl]

Above, i thought you said the long run was CAT5 ?

Sorry about that...all long runs are CAT6 (see attached image).

Is the "enable connectivity monitoring and wireless uplink" being turned on an issue? I found some posts elsewhere that said to turn this option off in the controller software if the WAP stopped broadcasting after a few minutes immediately after a restart.

 

[degrub]

You can try turning it off on all the WAPs and see what happens. @Tech9 ?

 

[tgl]

If all your APs are wired, it's generally recommended to disable wireless uplink in the UniFi controller settings. In current releases the relevant checkboxes are "Wireless Meshing" and "New WiFi Device Auto-Link", but they probably have different names if you are running an old version.

If you do need to leave wireless uplink enabled, take a close look at what the "connectivity monitor" address is set to. An AP will stop broadcasting if it's unable to ping that address for more than a minute or two, which seems to match the symptom you're complaining of. So make sure it's set to a local machine that's guaranteed up, or at least is critical enough that your network is down anyway without it. (While this can be a useful feature, UniFi has no way to disable it except by disabling wireless uplink, which is dumb.)

 

[Tech9]

I don’t even know why wireless meshing is or was enabled on this system. This requires the controller running 24/7.