Diary Of My Switch To Internet TV

[Kaizen]

But what about the stuff not on DVD?

Hi Tim

Thanks for a great set of articles. I'd love to break free of my Cable habit but all my research to date has turned up no viable alternative (legal or not).

My better half and I never watch content in real time. Everything is time shifted thanks to DVR and truthfully, I don't even know what channel broadcasts what show. To me that association has moved on.

All of the big shows like Lost, CSI etc. are released on DVD which is fine. The problem comes with the HGTV / TLC / Bravo shows that are never released in a format that can be purchased or rented. Even worse, they are simply not available on-line.

How are you guys solving that problem?

 

[thiggins]

Have you seen this, Tim?

http://lifehacker.com/5515398/set-up-a-geeky-media-center-that-non+geeks-can-actually-use

Probably things that you already know, but it might be helpful from a usability perspective.

Thanks. I had scanned that article.

I've been looking at WMC. But its TV options are very limited. The plugins that take you to Boxee or Hulu Desktop are just conveniences and expose you to different GUIs.

I've been investigating using PlayOn with WMC using the PlayiT plugin. I'm not real impressed with the quality of PlayOn-rendered content and the navigation is very clunky. No ability to set subscriptions or favorites either.

 

[thiggins]

Hi Tim

Thanks for a great set of articles. I'd love to break free of my Cable habit but all my research to date has turned up no viable alternative (legal or not).

My better half and I never watch content in real time. Everything is time shifted thanks to DVR and truthfully, I don't even know what channel broadcasts what show. To me that association has moved on.

All of the big shows like Lost, CSI etc. are released on DVD which is fine. The problem comes with the HGTV / TLC / Bravo shows that are never released in a format that can be purchased or rented. Even worse, they are simply not available on-line.

How are you guys solving that problem?

Ms. SNB has similar tastes. Sometimes I think our DirecTV DVR doesn't record anything but HGTV shows!

Simply put, we haven't cut off DirecTV yet. I suspect that the answer to this will lie in using Torrents and the ability to go direct to the show websites.

 

[BiggAW]

Hi Tim

Thanks for a great set of articles. I'd love to break free of my Cable habit but all my research to date has turned up no viable alternative (legal or not).

My better half and I never watch content in real time. Everything is time shifted thanks to DVR and truthfully, I don't even know what channel broadcasts what show. To me that association has moved on.

All of the big shows like Lost, CSI etc. are released on DVD which is fine. The problem comes with the HGTV / TLC / Bravo shows that are never released in a format that can be purchased or rented. Even worse, they are simply not available on-line.

How are you guys solving that problem?

A lot of these shows are on Bittorrent. eztv.it has a TON of shows, more of them are coming as 720p mkv files with x264 video encoding now. Of course, if you don't pay for the channel they originally came from, it is definitely illegal. It also has a WAF of zero point zero.

iTunes has some of them, but they are overcompressed, and pretty much all in SD. Most of their HD is network stuff, which you would get OTA anyways.

There really isn't a good solution for HGTV/ History/ Discovery networks other than to have cable. Even if they were all in iTunes in HD, the cost would add up so quickly that it wouldn't be worth it.

I think the focus of building a media center type of system shouldn't be to replace cable per se, but to integrate digital cable with internet content that isn't available elsewhere, or that is highly convenient, i.e. Netflix, Revision3.

 

[Mr. Chenevert]

I couldn't agree with you more regarding the Roku box. Although I am no longer a Netflix subscriber (couldn't stand the limited library any longer), I do regularly use the Roku to watch Revision 3 and other available programming. The Roku box puts everything else to shame. You can barely tell you arent watching regular HD programming!

Everytime I use the Roku, I get excited thinking I can ditch cable, but then I go watch Hulu and the quality just isn't anywhere near as good.

Roku and Netflix need to get more content available ASAP... charge a reasonable price... gold Jerry... gold!

 

[chaz]

Tim,

I just read part 4 of this series. Thank you for keeping us updated on your journey.

A few comments and questions:
-I agree, Hulu desktop is horrible! I rarely use it anymore due to the choppy playback.
-The updates to flash 10.1 p1 work well, but at this stage, I am playing back less and less web-based flash content, and playing more DVD rips, plugins and netflix. Specifically:
-WMC: Internet TV
-XBMC: DVD Rip playback, Music stations, tinkering with new plugins (which is my new project at this point)
-Boxee: Pandora, DVD Rip playback
-Is playon working out well for you on the Aspire Revo 3610? My only experience with it was on my ps3, and I decided not to renew/purchase.
-How do you like your Revo 3610 vs the Revo 1600? Is the difference very noticeable for what you're using it for?
-I have not had a chance to experience the RokuHD player. Is the viewing experience really that much better than the native Windows 7 WMC netflix plugin?

My earlier comments in this thread were initially in favor of WMC for its out-the-box ease of use and reliability. As time went on, I used it less and less, due to loss of interest in the boring user interface as well as the slow media scanning speeds (e.g. searching for movies). As I mentioned above, I'm exploring XBMC configurations and plugins and have been pretty entertained. The only frustration I have is the remote control functionality (e.g. WMC remote works well with WMC but not with XBMC; moderate performance with Boxee). I just ordered a lenovo HTPC remote, and will see if there is any improvement.

I haven't convinced everyone in the house that cable is no longer necessary, but I'm getting closer. As you mentioned, Bravo and other cable networks are a limiting factor. ESPN and sports in general are also areas of pushback.

Again, thanks for the updates! Cheers!

 

[thiggins]

-Is playon working out well for you on the Aspire Revo 3610? My only experience with it was on my ps3, and I decided not to renew/purchase.

I purchased it mainly for experimentation. It looks like it requires more horsepower than the 3610 can provide, if you run it and the media application that uses it on the same system. I mentioned other negatives in the article (odd video artifacts, no subscriptions, etc.)

-How do you like your Revo 3610 vs the Revo 1600? Is the difference very noticeable for what you're using it for?

I need to go back and do an A/B with the same "Roberts" configuration. It's only a matter of CPU power. Features are the same otherwise (except that it comes with Win7, which gives you WMC and wireless keyboard/mouse).

-I have not had a chance to experience the RokuHD player. Is the viewing experience really that much better than the native Windows 7 WMC netflix plugin?

Yes! I've never seen any artifacts or glitches from it. The worst that I've seen happen is that it will interrupt and restart a stream if it detects insufficient bandwidth. I don't know how they do it with no hard drive, but the little box is amazing (and has built-in IR). I just wish you could browse for content that isn't in your queue.

 

[thiggins]

I think the focus of building a media center type of system shouldn't be to replace cable per se, but to integrate digital cable with internet content that isn't available elsewhere, or that is highly convenient, i.e. Netflix, Revision3.

That could be some folks' focus. But, in many cases (me included), people want to top paying $100+/month!

 

[thiggins]

Roku and Netflix need to get more content available ASAP... charge a reasonable price... gold Jerry... gold!

It's not that Netflix isn't trying. But the incumbents (Comcast,Verizon,DirecTV) simply can throw more money at the content owners, as well as threaten to stop carrying them if they don't play ball.

 

[BiggAW]

That could be some folks' focus. But, in many cases (me included), people want to top paying $100+/month!

Then you're going to have to give up the Discovery networks, HGTV, and History for the most part, in addition to your RSN and ESPN. Stuff from the big four and PBS are most of what's on Hulu, in that case, wouldn't you just use OTA? OTA meets the free requirement, even if it's not internet content.

I don't think the big cable/ satellite players are trying to stop Netflix so much as the studios are, since they still don't get it. The biggest threat to DirecTV and Comcast (ok, Comcast, since half of the people leaving Comcast are probably getting DirecTV) is that people's screen time is getting fragmented to different content, not that the same content is available online, or that people just watch the networks, and now that the digital switchover has happened, they broadcast gorgeous HD for free at full power, and people don't want to pay when most of what they watch is free anyways.

 

[thiggins]

Then you're going to have to give up the Discovery networks, HGTV, and History for the most part, in addition to your RSN and ESPN. Stuff from the big four and PBS are most of what's on Hulu, in that case, wouldn't you just use OTA? OTA meets the free requirement, even if it's not internet content.

I have no interest in any sports programming. OTA will be used for networks if needed. Guess it will have to be torrents for the other must have stuff.

I don't think the big cable/ satellite players are trying to stop Netflix so much as the studios are, since they still don't get it. The biggest threat to DirecTV and Comcast (ok, Comcast, since half of the people leaving Comcast are probably getting DirecTV) is that people's screen time is getting fragmented to different content, not that the same content is available online, or that people just watch the networks, and now that the digital switchover has happened, they broadcast gorgeous HD for free at full power, and people don't want to pay when most of what they watch is free anyways.

Content owners and current distributors are both in the mix. The owners love the higher returns they get from pay-per-view and the distributors don't want to give up their $100 monthly incomes, hence their brain-dead "TV Everywhere" initiative.

The only way this will change is for consumers to lead the charge. Paying for content will be in the equation and I have no problem with that. But it needs to be much more reasonable. Netflix seems to have the right price point.

 

[BiggAW]

I have no interest in any sports programming. OTA will be used for networks if needed. Guess it will have to be torrents for the other must have stuff.

Content owners and current distributors are both in the mix. The owners love the higher returns they get from pay-per-view and the distributors don't want to give up their $100 monthly incomes, hence their brain-dead "TV Everywhere" initiative.

The only way this will change is for consumers to lead the charge. Paying for content will be in the equation and I have no problem with that. But it needs to be much more reasonable. Netflix seems to have the right price point.

The problem for lowering multi-channel pricing that I see is that we are moving in the direction of quality, i.e. HD, not streaming over the internet or mobile viewing. I think mobile viewing is pretty dumb, as why do we want to watch content on a tiny little screen when we could watch it on a big HDTV?

The concept of XFINITY is really, really, cool, the problem is, that Comcast has to go ahead and actually spend the money to upgrade many of their cable plants, as many are still in the dark ages in terms of bandwidth for HD. They also need hardware that doesn't completely suck.

The distributors really aren't in any danger (unless they are Comcast because DirecTV and AT&T can potentially hurt them pretty bad) because of ESPN, RSNs, and other live events. There just isn't a way, even if the content owners wanted to, to stream large live sporting events over the internet.

 

[dave b.]

I really thought this series would be more comprehensive, but then I went and re-read part 1 and realized you were looking for answers much as the rest of us are. I'd like to give you an idea of what I have been going through.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but PlayOn has lots of plugins, including HGTV, Discovery, Animal Planet, SyFy, VH1, BET, the major network stations, and plenty others, so you don't have to miss out on these stations entirely. Not to mention that you praise the benefits of the Roku box, and totally leave out Amazon VOD! Yeah, it's not free, but they have boatloads of content from all of the major cable channels at a reasonable price, and if you buy a TV pass, it gets even cheaper. They also have lots of free content, though the vast majority of it is crap. If you are an ultra heavy TV watcher, then Amazon VOD might be too expensive, but for the casual watcher even $30/month can purchase a good amount of content. For sports, you can even stream live sports from MyP2P.eu, which I have been using for 2 years to watch NFL games outside of my home market (although not in HD).

I thought maybe you would try a solution that combines PlayOn with plugins, Netflix, and Amazon VOD, which is a good and cost-effective combination that has lots of great content. The problem is making them all work together seamlessly, and I don't know if any of these boxes can do it. For example, PlayOn has a Netflix plugin, but it sucks, since you have to manually add selections to your queue. The PlayOn plugins don't always work. (The Justin.tv/Ustream.tv saga is turning into a Greek tragedy at this point.) Sometimes they get updated, and it breaks the old one, or a new one is released without your knowledge and you are wondering why your episodes have stopped updating. You really have to stay on top of these to make them work.

For WAF purposes, I'd like a box that has a Netflix app that displays it like the X360 does (menus, recently watched, which episodes watched and the percentage viewed, etc), have PlayOn as a separate app to watch Hulu and plugins, have the ability to add services like Justin.tv and Clicker, and play all of my other media content. I am currently using a MediaSmart EX90 with the PlayOn add-in to stream everything to my TV's, but the WAF is low because the media frontends are all different (PS3/X360 in one room, XBMC on Xbox1 in another, etc), so my wife would have to learn all of the menu commands per room. I really don't want to have to buy a set-top box for every single TV in my house, but if there is one that can accommodate all of these requests then I'll consider it. Admittely, I have little experience with the ROku box, so maybe it can do all of this.

As far as Netflix or Hulu cutting a deal with the major networks, the chance of that happening anytime soon is zero. The major networks hate Hulu, and will never allow it to be seen on televisions, which is why it has been banned from the Ps3 and Boxee. Not to mention that when Comcast purchases NBC, they will never allow content to be streamed to a STB, as they will have a major stake in keeping the cable tv monopoly going. Everyone says that ala carte won't work, but I can buy high quality, high production value, zero commercial 'premium' channels like HBO or Showtime from my cable provider for only $10. And that's the price that the provider charges. Imagine if you could get these channels directly from the source. Imagine a $50/mo cable package that included Hulu, Netflix, 30 monthly Amazon VOD downloads, two premium channels, and ESPN. Bring your own bandwidth and STB.

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for sharing your experience and tips, Dave. Yes, I am searching for answers like anyone else who is trying to cut the cable (or Sat link). The path will be long and hard, I'm sure.

The good news is there are more options and more content available today than there were even a year ago. The bad is that we're still in the early-adopter days with solutions with low WAF and highly variable quality. Tons o' fun still lie ahead!

 

[convergent]

Hi Tim

Thanks for a great set of articles. I'd love to break free of my Cable habit but all my research to date has turned up no viable alternative (legal or not).

My better half and I never watch content in real time. Everything is time shifted thanks to DVR and truthfully, I don't even know what channel broadcasts what show. To me that association has moved on.

All of the big shows like Lost, CSI etc. are released on DVD which is fine. The problem comes with the HGTV / TLC / Bravo shows that are never released in a format that can be purchased or rented. Even worse, they are simply not available on-line.

How are you guys solving that problem?

One thing I believe you have to do if you are planning to "cut the cord" is be open to new content. There are always going to be some programs that you will probably give up in this type of move, but the reality is that there is a LOT of other content out there. What if you moved to another country for your job and you couldn't get those shows on Bravo, for example... you'd live, right? You would explore what is available and find other things you like. So that is really the main thing to keep in mind.

I have a slightly different situation because I'm using a Mac and Plex, which is a Mac only fork of XBMC... so similar to XBMC and Boxee, but with its own set of plug-ins and such. But I also use Boxee for some content. I've almost got my Harmony Remote switching between these things in a way that meets the WAF.

The best place to go to see the total set of stuff available for internet viewing is Clicker.com, and there is a Clicker app that shows a subset of that on Boxee. If you can get it through Clicker, then its possible for an app to be built into Boxee, XBMC, or Plex, and eventually it will probably happen. By the way, there is an HGTV channel on Plex that works great, so I assume there is probably one on Boxee too but I've not checked.

I disagree with what some have said in recent posts here that the channels are going to expand their blockage of internet viewing. That may happen in some cases, but there is an advertising model on internet viewing and so they are losing money to do this... at some point it will get big enough to push them over the top. The interactive nature of advertising on a computer rather than a TV has advantages for them. Apple is exploiting this right now with the iPad and so that will help advertisers see the power of getting away from the Cable TV stranglehold. Its old technology and its days are numbered. So they can either lead, follow, or get out of the way.

I'll use MLB (Major League Baseball for the non-sports folks) as an example. They have delivered and excellent on demand viewing experience, and they charge less than the cable companies do for their similar service (MLB.TV vs. MLB Extra Innings) and provide an immensely better experience from my experience. They also have a great app that plugs into Boxee... so it can easily be integrated to work with the remote.

Someone mentioned in the thread that Hulu would never be allowed to be on a TV. This is simply not true... they have their on Hulu App that can be seamlessly hooked into Windows Media Center so that you can navigate into it and out of it with your remote. There is also a Hulu plug-in for Plex that I'm using which works great... allowing me to avoid the separate Hulu app. Further, someone has built a plug-in for Plex that aggregates all the Movies or TV Shows from Hulu, Netflix, and your local media...into a great integrated experience which is very wife friendly. Again, its not perfect, but its getting dang close.

So if you combine the OTA channels with DVR capability on the computer (EyeTV for Mac or Windows Media Center for Windows); with a media center app like XBMC, Boxee, or Plex; with other apps such as Hulu, etc., then there is a LOT of content available.

My biggest frustration is ESPN only allowing you to use their ESPN3 service if you are with an affiliated ISP... and of course Time Warner Cable is not. I am at the point where I'll give up ESPN if they want to play that way. This is, after all, just TV folks! I can live without any and all of it, and my life will actually be better off!

 

[afrokai]

No patriot box office love

I've been excitedly reading this series in hopes of doing the same thing as everyone else. Currently I have a Mac Mini hooked up to my tv via DVI to HDMI. It works but I hate the fact that I have an ugly keybaord and mouse in my entertainment center and there is my lovely 2 year old that wants to get into daddies things. I've looked at the Roku HD but can't get myself to buy it as it's limited only to Netflix, watching content off of my network is a must.

The Patriot Box Office seems to be what I'm looking for. Reading through the Patriot forums it seems as though you can hack the box office to accept Tversity for Netfix and Hulu. This seems to meet the WAF.

I'll make sure to post something as soon as I get one and would DIE to hear from anyone else who already has it.

 

[satoshi]

A set-top or HTPC only takes the place of cable/satellite if:

1) you're downloading the shows illegally
2) you're using an apple tv
3) you only want to watch network tv
4) you'll settle for hulu's growing pains
5) you don't mind the limited library on netflix streaming which is years away from being as large as their standard library

That being said...I'm not sure why this series of articles frowns upon Apple TV. Yeah, you have to pay for each show or buy the season pass, but it's still cheaper than cable/satellite. It also has the highest possible WAF, comes with a remote, and doesn't require any hassling with codecs/VDPAU/etc.

 

[thiggins]

That being said...I'm not sure why this series of articles frowns upon Apple TV.

I don't think Apple TV has been mentioned at all in the articles. Many forum posters have mentioned it, though.

I'm not including it in the series mainly because I'm not going to invest in buying something that Apple isn't interested in improving or will at some point soon replace.

 

[IsNull[]]

Cable free for just over a year. We still have entertainment expenses, just no cable bill. We are heavy Netflix disc and instant watch users (original Roku), Hulu from the Inspiron to the tv on HDMI, and a bevy of OTA locals, many in hd. Had to buy a real antenna to get those last few channels in Helena, AL.

Despite a few shortcoming, I think the Roku is the model for the future: a small 6 watt plug and play appliance, HDMI, optical out, wireless, simple remote, no local storage required, and subscription based repositories of content. You won't need a dvr anymore when you are effectively subscribed to a large online library. Hardware wise, I think the Roku has it, but it's hampered by the lack of libraries that you can subscribe to at this time.

What I always wanted from cable or satellite was a la carte channel selection. Let me choose what I want to pay for instead forcing me to buy one of three overpriced tiers full of channels that I'll never watch. If cable had ever offered such I'd probably still be a subscriber. The only cable channels that I really miss right now are Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, etc, but with all of the major networks available for free in hd OTA, a few news channels just aren't worth spending $45 a month. The spouse misses some other channels, but again, they just aren't the extra expense.

What I see developing out of this new model is less of an a la carte channel option and more of an a la carte content library option. If someone besides netflix offfered a library of content that we thought was worth paying for then we'de jump on it . That's the only way Hulu will ever get a dime from us - plug and play directly to the hdtv through the Roku, a console, Boxee Box, etc. And if we're paying, then Hulu is going to have to rethink those commercials.

 

[convergent]

A set-top or HTPC only takes the place of cable/satellite if:

1) you're downloading the shows illegally
2) you're using an apple tv
3) you only want to watch network tv
4) you'll settle for hulu's growing pains
5) you don't mind the limited library on netflix streaming which is years away from being as large as their standard library

While you've listed some of the options for viewing without cable, you have not considered the fact that you can combine all of these things to create a content rich environment. People with cable watch what is available on cable. For some reason, there is a perception that the only acceptable alternative is to have all the same content that is available on cable. I don't accept that. When you combine OTA network TV (which is a large share of what is watched on cable), Hulu, Netflix, and what is available via other internet accessible channels, you really have a pretty rich environment. You may not be able to watch the exact same shows you watch on cable, but you can certainly come up with a suitable selection of genres. The notable exception is live sports which is pretty weak via a HTPC. We watch a lot of MLB baseball, and fortunately the MLB.TV alternative is actually a lot better, and cheaper, than what cable offers. I get my fill of most other sports... NCAA, NASCAR, NFL, etc., via OTA networks. The one thing I will miss is NHRA drag racing which seems to only be available on ESPN2. I'm not even seeing that on ESPN3... the online alternative. People need to stop assuming that the only TV happiness is to have 100% of what they get on cable. This is entertainment folks! What if your favorite show on cable got canceled? You'd find something else to watch. As for Netflix not having the full library available.. that's true, but what is available is a pretty deep list of stuff. And remember that you do get to deliver Netflix by mail too, so that is a simple supplement. I have an Apple TV but am not using it at the moment. I think if they ever move the episode prices to $1 from $2, I would be all over it... but at $2 I'll go with what I can get from other channels.