CakeQOS CakeQoS Gaming issue

[askan7]

What is the speed of your network connection and what is the best test you have seen on that link? Also, what is typical tested speed?
Other than in the test you demonstrate in your video. What are your bandwidth settings for cake?
What else is running on your network besides the game?

Modem is synced at 12228/1009 kbps. Speedtests report 10.5mb/s down and 0.8mb/s up without any qos. Connection between ac86u and the ISP´s router is 1gbps. I've also tried to place a switch in between both routers, didn't help.
Nothing else besides the game. Same as the meter.net/ping-test, nothing else running.

I can have the same limits on FlexQos and have no issues, only with cake. But cake gives WAY lower bufferbloat, and much better gaming experience if some download/upload starts on another device.

 

[Wistuplu]

Speedtests report 10.5mb/s down and 0.8mb/s up without any qos.

Have you tried with something like setting up cake with 0.65mbps up and 9mbps down? The low numbers I have remind seeing for those tests were still on or above 1mbps. Sorry if I have missed that information...
Edit: And I kind of mixed the results from askan and the other poster. Anyway, you get the idea: try with a figure that is really (like 80% - 90%) below the actual measured bandwidth.

 

[askan7]

Have you tried with something like setting up cake with 0.65mbps up and 9mbps down? The low numbers I have remind seeing for those tests were still on or above 1mbps. Sorry if I have missed that information...
Edit: And I kind of mixed the results from askan and the other poster. Anyway, you get the idea: try with a figure that is really (like 80% - 90%) below the actual measured bandwidth.

Yes I did. Trust me I tested the perfect limits with multiple different tests. Upload can be set to 1-2% of max modem sync speed without bufferbloat with the right packet overhead, 32 atm in my case, since the isp's router is in bridge mode and running with LLC.

Only fix for low load ping spikes is to unlimit uplink or set it to 1000mbps. But that gives insane loaded latency. 300+ms.

 

[marko]

Does anyone know what is the best CAKE setup for P2P games?

 

[cplay]

Does anyone know what is the best CAKE setup for P2P games?

Would be interested to know peoples opinion on cake settings that are optimal for p2p gaming (fps etc) that require as low ping as possible with little to no bufferfloat.

 

[marko]

Would be interested to know peoples opinion on cake settings that are optimal for p2p gaming (fps etc) that require as low ping as possible with little to no bufferfloat.

Exactly, and specially when someone on the opposite side "suddenly" starts lagging how can that affect only him and not you. Would be that possible with cake, like can cake handle those lag turbulences?

 

[Morris]

Yes I did. Trust me I tested the perfect limits with multiple different tests. Upload can be set to 1-2% of max modem sync speed without bufferbloat with the right packet overhead, 32 atm in my case, since the isp's router is in bridge mode and running with LLC.

Only fix for low load ping spikes is to unlimit uplink or set it to 1000mbps. But that gives insane loaded latency. 300+ms.

I suspect your outbound link is over subscribed. Take a look at your bandwidht graphs.

 

[Morris]

Would be interested to know peoples opinion on cake settings that are optimal for p2p gaming (fps etc) that require as low ping as possible with little to no bufferfloat.

Best effort, 95% of upload and download speeds. Easy as cake. The more you configure the worse it works.

 

[cplay]

Best effort, 95% of upload and download speeds. Easy as cake. The more you configure the worse it works.

Best effort on both dl and ul?

 

[askan7]

Best effort, 95% of upload and download speeds. Easy as cake. The more you configure the worse it works.

I'm not sure about the 95%. For me I can set upload up to modem sync speed without bufferblaot, 0.98 (1003kbps) modem sync at 1007.
Download on the other hand needs to be much lower, like 5-10%.

It's funny that cake drops less packets when my upload limits are higher, ~3% dropped while oversubscribing the upload at 0.98.
It's the download that as a lot of dropped packets but latency is much better.

Also my upload was not oversubscribed.

 

[marko]

What I found out on the cake wiki page --> https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/CakeTechnical/

Most traffic falls into the Best Effort class. VoIP, NTP and gaming traffic should be directed to the Voice class, BitTorrent should be directed to the Bulk class, and the Video class is available for any bulk traffic that requires elevated priority.

So, what would Cake think of P2P gaming? Shall we try to set our game (or console better) to the Voice class or Bulk class, since bulk is for BitTorrent which is P2P?

 

[el pescador]

I'm not sure about the 95%. For me I can set upload up to modem sync speed without bufferblaot, 0.98 (1003kbps) modem sync at 1007.
Download on the other hand needs to be much lower, like 5-10%.

It's funny that cake drops less packets when my upload limits are higher, ~3% dropped while oversubscribing the upload at 0.98.
It's the download that as a lot of dropped packets but latency is much better.

Also my upload was not oversubscribed.

Ideally you do not want ANY UDP gaming packets dropped your end , as en route and back dropped UDP will be higher than what games are saying as it is.....Prime example is FIFA. Their tool shows below 1% loss which in fact equates to malformed packets only. Not the 20%+ (on mine) loss. They resend the packets but dont count the original as lost.
I´d say most games companies use a similar system..on cod you cant see it on wireshark though so easier for them to hide.

re latency...as long as it is stable you should be fine.

there is another small issue re latency though.
as both routes are independent , using Round trip Time to calculate lag comp isnt going to be accurate on some connections and in game scenarios you may get a very slight out of sync feeling.
imo though this is a small problem.

packet loss and how games companies hide the issue is scandalous.

 

[askan7]

Ideally you do not want ANY UDP gaming packets dropped your end , as en route and back dropped UDP will be higher than what games are saying as it is.....Prime example is FIFA. Their tool shows below 1% loss which in fact equates to malformed packets only. Not the 20%+ (on mine) loss. They resend the packets but dont count the original as lost.
I´d say most games companies use a similar system..on cod you cant see it on wireshark though so easier for them to hide.

re latency...as long as it is stable you should be fine.

there is another small issue re latency though.
as both routes are independent , using Round trip Time to calculate lag comp isnt going to be accurate on some connections and in game scenarios you may get a very slight out of sync feeling.
imo though this is a small problem.

packet loss and how games companies hide the issue is scandalous.

I have no packet loss at all. When i say 3% dropped i'm talking about cake stats, when using tc -s qdisc. I get around 3% drop when running upload tests, using ALL the upload available. I get pretty much 0 while gaming with no one else using my network.

 

[marko]

Not to open new topic since this is related to gaming as well I have a question at this moment.


Can some good guy help me with installing it, since it is really confusing for me? And I want to use CAKE to prioritize gaming.

I am using RT-AC86U and have fiber optic connection and ISP router is in a bridge mode with 400/160 speed. Edit: I am using 384.19 merlin.

So, what would be the steps. For example?

1. Turn off ASUS QOS?
2. Should I enable/disable trendmicro or doesnt matter?
3. Do I want to turn on game acceleration or it doesnt matter?
4. Do I want to disable/enable NAT acceleration or port forward or it doesnt matter?
5. I need exact command(s) for installation, probably the most important part. (commands, overhead, dl/ul, priority queue, extra dl/ul options, etc.)

Thank you in advance, I really appreciate it.

 

[chatmandu_uk]

I´d say most games companies use a similar system..on cod you cant see it on wireshark though so easier for them to hide.

If you rename the wireshark.exe file to something else (e.g. WS.exe) you can run wireshark with CoD. I did this to confirm that the in game packets are sent with destination port 3074.

 

[marko]

Not to open new topic since this is related to gaming as well I have a question at this moment.


Can some good guy help me with installing it, since it is really confusing for me? And I want to use CAKE to prioritize gaming.

I am using RT-AC86U and have fiber optic connection and ISP router is in a bridge mode with 400/160 speed. Edit: I am using 384.19 merlin.

So, what would be the steps. For example?

1. Turn off ASUS QOS?
2. Should I enable/disable trendmicro or doesnt matter?
3. Do I want to turn on game acceleration or it doesnt matter?
4. Do I want to disable/enable NAT acceleration or port forward or it doesnt matter?
5. I need exact command(s) for installation, probably the most important part. (commands, overhead, dl/ul, priority queue, extra dl/ul options, etc.)

Thank you in advance, I really appreciate it.

These are the settings I applied and it seems that it is working fine, I will test it for the next days tho.

CakeQOS-Merlin: > Download Status:
qdisc cake 8025: dev ifb9eth0 root refcnt 2 bandwidth 360Mbit besteffort triple-isolate nat wash ingress no-ack-filter split-gso rtt 100.0ms raw overhead 0 no-sce

CakeQOS-Merlin: > Upload Status:
qdisc cake 8024: dev eth0 root refcnt 2 bandwidth 148Mbit diffserv3 triple-isolate nat nowash no-ack-filter split-gso rtt 100.0ms raw overhead 0 no-sce

Thanks to @Wade Coxon for helping out and explaining stuff!

Just a note... I also wanted to use dual-dsthost instead of triple-isolate on both dl/ul but that seems to be possible only if i choose diffserv4 (someone correct me if i got it wrong).
Also, i wanted to have nowash on both dl/ul but with besteffort setting it seems that wash is a must, while if i chose nowash my setting would automatically switch to diffserv4 + dual-dsthost.
But for p2p gaming and my setup i picked up besteffort/diffserv3. If someone thinks there is better solution (for example diffserv4 or some other setting) for my setup please advise.

P.S. With these settings and as well as when i choose diffserv4 i got triple A+ on bufferbloat.

 

[Wade Coxon]

Thanks to @Wade Coxon for helping out and explaining stuff!

Just a note... I also wanted to use dual-dsthost instead of triple-isolate on both dl/ul but that seems to be possible only if i choose diffserv4 (someone correct me if i got it wrong).
Also, i wanted to have nowash on both dl/ul but with besteffort setting it seems that wash is a must, while if i chose nowash my setting would automatically switch to diffserv4 + dual-dsthost.
But for p2p gaming and my setup i picked up besteffort/diffserv3. If someone thinks there is better solution (for example diffserv4 or some other setting) for my setup please advise.

P.S. With these settings and as well as when i choose diffserv4 i got triple A+ on bufferbloat.

You don't want to use dual-dsthost on upload. You need to use dual-srchost instead since the traffic direction is reversed.

triple-isolate is an ok alternative to use, but just know that if another PC on your LAN initiates a torrent or similar number of large volume, high connection count transfers, they are likely to steal all the bandwidth from all other devices on the LAN. the dual-srchost and dual-dsthost ensure that all LAN devices get a fair share of the bandwidth.

Washed or not washed, besteffort will just ignore the dscp marks. I suggested nowash as the lower-CPU-cost option to select, since besteffort doesn't care about them.

 

[marko]

You don't want to use dual-dsthost on upload. You need to use dual-srchost instead since the traffic direction is reversed.

triple-isolate is an ok alternative to use, but just know that if another PC on your LAN initiates a torrent or similar number of large volume, high connection count transfers, they are likely to steal all the bandwidth from all other devices on the LAN. the dual-srchost and dual-dsthost ensure that all LAN devices get a fair share of the bandwidth.

Washed or not washed, besteffort will just ignore the dscp marks. I suggested nowash as the lower-CPU-cost option to select, since besteffort doesn't care about them.

I got it, but this is what I get when i run the following command "cake-qos settings optionsup dual-srchost"

Result:
CakeQOS-Merlin: > Upload Status:
qdisc cake 8008: dev eth0 root refcnt 2 bandwidth 148Mbit diffserv4 dual-srchost nat nowash no-ack-filter split-gso rtt 100.0ms raw overhead 0 no-sce

Before:
CakeQOS-Merlin: > Upload Status:
qdisc cake 8024: dev eth0 root refcnt 2 bandwidth 148Mbit diffserv3 triple-isolate nat nowash no-ack-filter split-gso rtt 100.0ms raw overhead 0 no-sce

So, it seems that when i change from triple-isolate to dual-srchost I get automatically diffserv4 and I want diffserv3...

Edit:
Or maybe I am not using the right command?

I entered cake-qos menu by simply typing "cake-qos" in the putty terminal and there I changed properties. Now it looks like this:

CakeQOS-Merlin: > Download Status:
qdisc cake 8011: dev ifb9eth0 root refcnt 2 bandwidth 360Mbit besteffort dual-dsthost nat nowash ingress no-ack-filter split-gso rtt 100.0ms raw overhead 0 no-sce

CakeQOS-Merlin: > Upload Status:
qdisc cake 8010: dev eth0 root refcnt 2 bandwidth 148Mbit diffserv3 dual-srchost nat nowash no-ack-filter split-gso rtt 100.0ms raw overhead 0 no-sce

Is this correct?

Thanks

 

[Wade Coxon]

I entered cake-qos menu by simply typing "cake-qos" in the putty terminal and there I changed properties. Now it looks like this:

CakeQOS-Merlin: > Download Status:
qdisc cake 8011: dev ifb9eth0 root refcnt 2 bandwidth 360Mbit besteffort dual-dsthost nat nowash ingress no-ack-filter split-gso rtt 100.0ms raw overhead 0 no-sce

CakeQOS-Merlin: > Upload Status:
qdisc cake 8010: dev eth0 root refcnt 2 bandwidth 148Mbit diffserv3 dual-srchost nat nowash no-ack-filter split-gso rtt 100.0ms raw overhead 0 no-sce

Is this correct?

Yep, that looks pretty optimal now.

You probably wouldn't have noticed any practical difference between diffserv3/4/besteffort, it's mosly window dressing until we get DSCP marking on packets.

And you might not have even had trouble between triple-isolate and the two dual-xxxhost options either unless someone was going nuts with torrents.
Just for now, these are the most sensible option combinations.

You're good to go.

Howver, I now see that 386.2 is in public release, so I would encourage you to take your learnings now and use that instead.
Uninstall the current cake-qos script and files prior to upgrading.
Then after the upgrade, install the cake-qos 2.0.0 addon. You can then take advantage of the native cake implementation and the Web GUI.

 

[marko]

Thanks again for the effort!

And, yeah, i saw new release. I will definitelly give it a try, just will let it settle for a couple of days i guess